Show Notes
- Dr Peter Brukner website
- Defeat Diabetes website
- Unstress episode with Dr Peter Brukner on defeat diabetes
- Unstress episode with Patrick Holford on Food for the Brain
- Unstress episode with Dr Michael Mosley on the fast 800
- Unstress episode with James Mueke on diabetes
- Unstress episode with Dr Tabitha Healey on burnout in medicine
Timestamps
00:00 – 03:00 – Introduction by Dr Ron Ehrlich03:01 – 06:00 – Overview of diabetes types and the growing issue of type 2 diabetes06:01 – 09:30 – Dr Peter Brukner’s background in sports medicine and public health09:31 – 14:00 – The creation of Defeat Diabetes and the importance of a low carb, healthy fat diet14:01 – 18:50 – Research and success stories from the Defeat Diabetes program18:51 – 24:30 – The medical community’s resistance to low carb diets and challenges faced24:31 – 28:50 – The science behind low carb diets and its impact on diabetes reversal28:51 – 33:00 – Breakthrough partnership with Diabetes Australia33:01 – 38:00 – Workplace wellbeing and the potential for low carb in healthcare38:01 – 44:00 – Personal experiences from doctors and patients on low carb diets44:01 – 51:00 – Broader health implications, including mental health and metabolic conditions51:01 – 56:30 – Closing thoughts and the future of diabetes care with Dr Brukner
Dr Peter Brukner: A Game Changer for Diabetes Care
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:00:00] Feeling stressed, overwhelmed. It’s time to unstressed your life and focus on controlling what you can control. I’m Dr. Ron Ehrlich, host of the Unstressed Health podcast, inviting you to join the Unstress Health community and discover a holistic approach that helps you more effectively face the daily challenges of our modern world and effectively recover each and every day. Unstress Health is here to provide you with advice and support that is independent of industry and influence and influence. That’s easy to miss but difficult to ignore. Our focus is on building mental fitness. Your mind can be your best friend or your worst enemy. Mental fitness is the key. Our three phased approach Target mindset Whose positive intelligence quotient and move from self-sabotage to self-mastery. Secondly, the challenges We redefine what stress means in our modern world. And thirdly, Recovery master the five pillars of Health. As a member of the Stress health community. You’ll turn obstacles into opportunities with expert led courses, curated podcasts, personalised health assessments, supportive community, and much, much more. Join on Stress health today and together let’s not just survive but thrive. Click on the link below or visit on stress health.com. Well, today we explore a low carb diet, insulin, diabetes and as you will learn, diabetes is a huge and growing problem. Type two. There are two or now maybe three types of diabetes. Type one is where the pancreas does not produce insulin. Type two is insulin resistance. Now 85 to 90% of diabetes cases are type two diabetes that used to be referred to as late onset diabetes because it occurred later in life, but it is now affecting children as well. So it is type two diabetes and more recently, type three diabetes has been thought to be a way of looking at dementia. And we’ll we’ve explored that with Patrick Holford in our Food for the Brain conversation. But today we are exploring insulin and diabetes. And one of the greatest breakthroughs, I believe, in public health in over 40 years. My guest is and I’m welcoming back, in fact, Dr. Peter Brook. Now, Peter is a legend. He is world renowned sports medicine clinician and researcher. He was formerly the chief medical officer for the Australian men’s cricket team and has also held similar roles at the Liverpool Football Club in the English Premier League, also with Australian Rules Football League clubs Melbourne and Collingwood, the Australian National football soccer team, the Socceroos and was the chief medical officer for the Australian Olympic team in Sydney 2000. So Peter comes a very well credentialed. He’s world renowned and but actually he’s wearing another hat, which is that he is the founder of Defeat Diabetes, which is based on a low carb, healthy fat diet. And as you will hear, a recent collaboration in Australia has been really what I believe to be one of the most significant breakthroughs in public health in over 40 years, an initiative which is addressing the cause of disease in an achievable, in a cheap, achievable, sustainable and most importantly, effective way. And why this isn’t being rolled out to every Australian, let alone the 2 million Australians that suffer from Type two diabetes, is a mystery which we will explore and have explored on this podcast before. But I hope you enjoy this conversation I had with Dr. Peter Brukner. Welcome to the show, Peter.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:04:19] I’m happy to be here on.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:04:20] Well, I should say welcome back because it’s been always good to catch up with you and get the latest on what’s going on and what is going on is really something incredibly exciting. And I mentioned it in the intro to Defeat Diabetes, but I wondered if you might give us a brief recap of the history of defeat diabetes.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:04:40] Yeah, sure. I mean, I guess, you know, I’ve been interested in that in the dye thing for the last ten years or so, and particularly the the low carb and and I guess, you know, type two diabetes is really the, you know, the elephant in the room in many ways. I believe that it’s the biggest single health issue in the country, in the Western world anyway. And and, you know, there is ample evidence now that, you know, the low carb eating approach is is highly effective in the management of type two diabetes, putting it into remission or reversal or whatever you want to call it. We can talk about that later. But and there are programs in both the UK and the US that have proven to be very effective. And I guess I was sort of waiting for someone to do something in Australia along similar lines and waiting and waiting and realising, well, that ain’t going to happen unless, unless I do something about it. So, so I got together with Paul Mason, who you would know, and a fellow and Paul and I have similar backgrounds and we, we, we started in sports medicine and we’ve sort of been moved into nutrition and, and a dietician called Nicole Moore. And that was our Covid project. We decided we’d put together a, a program which we called Defeat Diabetes, which consists of a whole bunch of videos, articles, recipes, meal plans, cooking demos, etc. that could tackle the issue of type two diabetes and basically give people the knowledge and the and the means, if you like, to to to tackle this, because I think it’s really important to have some understanding of what the disease is and why, you know, why low carb works and how it works and so on. But also then very practical things, you know, what do I want to eat when I’m out? And. Takeaway food can I have and all this sort of stuff. So we put together a sort of a series of lessons, as we call them, which consists of, yeah, one video and a bunch of articles and things and so on. And, and we’ve also got a sort of very active Facebook group of that of our members, which is really quite stimulating. So we started that. When do we start that? Three years ago and we launched. It’s a subscription model, so people subscribe for 3 or 12 months. It costs virtually nothing. I think it’s a I went out, it was about a cappuccino a fortnight that got and and we we launched that and we’ve had we’ve had over 10,000 people go through the programme or subscribe to the programme and lots of good feedback and, and so on. We’ve done a couple of surveys of the, our subscribers and how effective it is and they’ve both been very positive, you know, with between 50 and 60% of people putting their diabetes into the, into their, their sugars, into the non-diabetic range, shall we say, and you know, weight loss and reduce waist circumference and so on. But, you know, being realistic, they’re just surveys. I mean, so what we decided was that we needed to do some rigorous research, independent research. So we went to the nutrition department at La Trobe University here in Melbourne and and Professor George mushiness was happy to, to undertake that research. We have a PhD student go to Spain, a couple of us, and we designed a research project involving GP’s. So we contacted GP through the College of General Practice and we invited them to to sign up to for this research project and I thought we’d get about 50 page, but we got about 150 jobs. And what we asked them to do was identify patients in their practice or a patient or patients in their practice with type two diabetes. Didn’t matter whether it was newly diagnosed or been there for ages, who were interested in and a low carb eating approach and introduced them to the different diabetes program and monitor their bloods for the 12 months. So do Bloods zero three, six and 12 months. And we recruited 100 people into that program. And we have the three month data and we’ve got most of the six and 12 month data, but we’ve got all of our three month data. And in fact, our PhD student is presenting that data at the Australian Diabetes Congress in Perth next week. And again, it shows that about 85% of the subjects improve their glycemic controls, improve their blood sugar levels. More than half, about 55% actually reduce their HB one C, which is a measure we use for diagnosing diabetes into the non-diabetic range. So they started off all started off with a nice balance of over 6.5, which is the diagnostic criteria. And more than half of them after three months were under 6.5. So in theory, you know, we’re not diabetic anymore, but some number had reduced their medications. We didn’t have anyone in the program on insulin. We had a number who were on the different different drugs. So that’s pretty exciting. The weight loss was significant, the waist circumference. And interestingly, we also looked at a bunch of sort of quality of life sort of measures. And there’s an interesting one called diabetes distress, which is a validated quality of life. And and that markedly reduced on the program because people, you know, you sort of as doctors and we maybe we don’t appreciate it enough but you know people when they’re diagnosed with type two diabetes, it’s it’s very stressful on them. You know, they read about all the complications and so on. Anyway, so that that measure was was decreased. So we’re we’re pretty excited about that. That research was submitted for publication and hopefully that’ll come out in the next little while. As I said, our three month data and then we’re going to have six month and 12 month. So yeah, it’s, it’s sort of it’s very similar, almost identical results to to the UK that diabetes UK, UK papers and the Verdoux health studies in the States. Very similar. Somewhere between 50 and 60% of patients are no longer in the diabetic range, which is, as we know, right as we were taught in medical school. You know, it’s a chronic progressive disease. There’s nothing you can do for it.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:11:50] Well, Peter, I think it’s fair to say that the doctors who parrot that and they are only really repeating what they’ve been taught and continue to be taught to truly believe that until often they themselves are confronted with the diagnosis and then suddenly curiosity kicks in a little bit more and goes a little bit further back into their medical education, back to biochemistry and physiology, and go, hang on, maybe I can do something about this. That’s not an uncommon story, is it?
Dr Peter Brukner [00:12:28] Absolutely. I mean, the most passionate, you know, advocates of low carb eating among the medical profession are those who have had the experience themselves, you know, have been diabetic or pre-diabetic. I was pre-diabetic and turned it around with that with diet. And there’s nothing like your personal experiment. You can read all the articles and the textbooks and that videos and YouTube and so on. But if you go through it yourself, I mean, that’s a very, very meaningful experience. And that that’s what that’s what happened to me. It’s how I got me started. And that was, you know, 12 years ago. And I’m I’m still going.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:13:05] And you’re looking you’re looking very well for it, too. Peter, you also said something that you felt that deep was diabetes was the most serious disease. And and, you know, we’ve done programs on cancer, on cardiovascular, on auto immune, on mental health. And the common denominator in all of them is not just chronic inflammation, but elevated insulin level is is such an underlying cause of so many other of so many other conditions. So what you’re saying is absolutely right.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:13:40] Absolutely. You know, I mean, it’s just I mean, it amazes me that that, you know. More people are not concerned about, you know, type two diabetes and I’ve got a theory run for theory is that the problem with it is that people don’t die of type two diabetes. Okay? So they die of the complications of type two diabetes. So, you know, we’ve got to remember that type two diabetes is the most common cause of blindness. It’s the most common cause of amputations as common cause of kidney disease, kidney transplants and dialysis. It’s very closely associated with cardiovascular disease. I mean, there are there are eminent cardiologists who say everyone has a heart attack, is an undiagnosed diabetic. I’m sure you’ve heard that, that saying before. Mental health. Massive issue. Really exciting areas now in the treatment of mental health. So it’s low carb. Dementia, Alzheimer’s and Alzheimer’s is called type two diabetes, you know. So and these are and even cancer. There seems to be some strong links with it with cancer now. So all these these are diseases that kill us. But the underlying cause is is type two diabetes. And as you say, they are the root cause of that is that is insulin resistance. And, you know, we should be tackling that as a number one health priority in the country. And yet, you know, people just throw a few drugs at it and, you know, don’t really don’t really care. And we have a you know, we have a there’s so much evidence now that a dietary approach can make a massive difference in two Type two diabetes. And yet, you know nobody. Robbie Gibson there’s not money that’s a trouble, right?
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:15:21] Well, it’s a common theme and it’s a common expression I have on this program that good health may make sense, but it doesn’t make dollars. And and it’s actually why, Peter, on a little bit of diversion here, why I really believe workplace wellbeing is going to be where we’re going to see this change because there is a confluence of interests there. But listen, the one thing that I also struck me as, struck me as you were talking, was you have 10,000 members of defeat diabetes. How many people in Australia suffer from type two diabetes?
Dr Peter Brukner [00:15:55] We think it’s close to 2 million. So we’re just scratching the surface, as you say. My aim was to get 100,000 people on our program and, you know, we would you know, I mean, I experience that would mean that, you know, more than half of them would would would no longer be in the diabetic range and all the others, you know, significantly decrease their their their sugar levels. I mean, you know, we might have someone who starts at ten and goes to seven. Well, they’re not you know, they’re not non-diabetic. But you know, their their their risk of complications for every 1% HBO and see is reduced You know it’s something like 30% less amputations and kidney and all that sort of stuff. So massive, massive improvements and so simple.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:16:40] Cheap.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:16:41] Easy, you know, And yet, you know, we spend hundreds of millions of dollars on on drugs and, you know, trying to find drugs for Alzheimer’s and, you know, all these different things. Whereas we’ve got a very simple solution that’s the cheap and has been proven to be effective. The problem is that no one wants to know about it because there’s no money in it.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:17:00] Well well, we’re going to talk about because, you know, you have you’ve taken this on, Peter. And I think because of your high profile people have actually sat up and taken notice. And there’s some very exciting things happening which we want to talk about. But I still want to talk about this low carb approach, because a few months ago, we had the pleasure, the privilege, the honour of talking to Michael Mosley, who tragically died shortly after that interview, I might add, but he had been championing for many, many years the low carb, low calorie approach, the fast 800, as he talked about it, and as I was talking to him, and I’ve obviously been very connected with low carb for many years, like yourself, I was listening to him and I thought, you know what? I can really get why Michael had become so famous and so popular because he was still talking about the calories in, calories out story that had been a public health message for so long. And, you know, I guess the question is low calorie versus low carb. I mean, somebody might be saying, look, I’m going to go low fat and low carb and I’m going to tick both boxes, so I’m going to be doubly good. What do you say to somebody who focuses on low calorie? What’s the shortcoming there and what do you got? Where do you what do you say to that?
Dr Peter Brukner [00:18:22] Yeah, look, I think, you know, let’s look at what what is effective. So there are three things that are leaving aside, you know, the latest fancy drugs and so on, which we can talk about later. But there are three ways of drastically reducing your your body fat levels, you know, obesity and and or improving your, your diabetes control, throw your diabetes into remission. The first is bariatric surgery effective? Yep, absolutely. But, you know, not everyone wants to have half their stomach dropped out and.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:18:57] And not without long on, not without complications going forward.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:19:01] A lot of side effects and very difficult to live with. But but I think, you know, absolutely research shows and expect that these experiences affect. So that’s number one. Number two is what you mentioned, the low calorie approach. You know, you put someone on an 800 calorie a day diet and they will lose weight and they will improve their diabetes control. Absolutely. But they will they’ll be. Angry, hungry and angry. You know, it is just I defy anyone to stay on an 800 calorie a day diet long term. You know, and most the effective research shows that, you know, you’ve got to use shakes and soups and so on rather than proper food, you know, so most people will go on to a low calorie diet, will last a week, a month, three months, maybe. They’re miserable and it’s really difficult because they’re hungry and then they relapse. And that’s where you get this yo yo dieting. People go on and off and on and off and they’re not happy. It’s not an effective long term white light and diabetes control. And the third way is the low carb approach. And the reason that’s effective is that you’re not hungry. You know, you need as much fat and protein as you like, and so you don’t have that issue with with hunger. So that’s why I would say that the low carb approach is really the only practical, effective way of those three methods. The other interesting issue is that, you know, if you’re on a low calorie upright approach, 800 calorie a day, I mean, that’s low carb. You know, it’s it’s got to be really you know, he’s just not eating anything, really. So in a way, you know, you’re eating low carb with with hunger, you know, whereas a low carb approach is really low carb without hunger. And so that’s why I think, you know, it’s interesting, right? I’m sure you have this as well. People people say, you know, but low carb is not sustainable. And so. It’s interesting. The only people who say that are people who haven’t tried it. Yes. You know, I mean, anyone who’s died knows that you feel so bloody good and, you know, you you lose weight. Yea yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Fatty liver disappears. You you know your diabetes control improves, your brain fog disappears, you know, you sleep and all these sort of factors and that’s very motivating, you know, and you keep going because once you go, you know, you go off for a weekend and you feel like rubbish and you know, you get back on on a Monday morning as I write, I’m back into it. But yeah, so I think it’s, it’s, it’s cheap, it’s effective and sustainable and it’s sort of logical, you know, because I mean, what is type two diabetes? It’s a disease of carbohydrate intolerance. So as my kids would say, duh, you know, you don’t give them carbohydrates. I mean, it’s not rocket science. And yet somehow that logical fact escapes the medical profession because we’re so distracted by by drugs and surgery and so on that we we we lose our sort of common sense and logic and we stop thinking. And I was guilty. Absolutely. I was guilty for 30 years of my medical career of following all the dogma and just, you know, doing whatever they said. And, you know, at some stage, you know, sort of wake up and say, hang on a minute. That didn’t make any sense at all. Yeah. You know, the recommended diet for type two diabetes is high, complex carbohydrates. I mean, you know, how crazy is that? I mean.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:22:36] Yeah, I know. Look, defeat diabetes was celebrating the not defeat diabetes Diabetes Australia was it was celebrating its 75th anniversary. And I went onto the site, in fact, I wrote about it in my book, The Seven The Ten Steps for Living Life, the key word being here with diabetes. And step number one was include carbohydrates in every meal and eat low fat. That was step number one of a ten step program. And I realised the key word here was with if you wanted to live life with diabetes, you would follow that advice. But if you were to live life without diabetes. But, but Peter, there’s another group that I think, you know, you mentioned those those three groups I know from a friend of mine who has been fanatically low, low fat. You know, he wants to do everything right because Ansel caves in the 50s and 60s and doctors have been parroting it ever since. Low fat is important. Avoid saturated fat. So when he went on to a low carb diet, he wanted to tick both boxes. He wanted to be doubly good. He wanted to be low fat and low carb because there is you mentioned it, but I think we need to highlight it. There is an issue about facts in this process, isn’t it?
Dr Peter Brukner [00:23:51] Yeah, Well, look, the whole fat thing is it’s a fascinating story, the way we became obsessed, as you mentioned, Ansel Cage and some very dodgy research back in the in the post-war era that has since been disproven. But, you know, people remember the original the research. And he did did some studies in six countries, in seven countries study that. You know, he pointed out there was a direct correlation between the amount of fat in the diet and the incidence of heart disease. But then it turns out that, you know, there wasn’t a six country study at all. It was a 22 country study. And when you put the 22 country study and there was no correlation at all that he plucked out the six that gave a nice little sort of straight line. So, you know, I mean, basically now the whole fad thing is based on a fraud. And, you know, even Ansel Key said that a dodgy cholesterol has no effect on your cholesterol. And look, it’s it’s, you know, it’s an incredible saga. And the books written by Gary Taubes and Dana Tosh also documented in a fascinating way. I mean, that’s what initially got me interested in this reading those books. And I couldn’t believe, you know, how we fell for this, this obsession with with saturated fat. And there’s now yeah, there’s only about 20 systematic reviews, which is the highest level of evidence and shows there is no correlation between saturated fat and cardiovascular disease. And yet you talk to any doctor, any dietitian who will try and convince you that saturated fat is the worst thing we’re seeing on the net. You know, it’s actually that the polyunsaturated fats, the immediate sixs, the seed oils, visuals that are the issue. And, you know, but then again, you know, they they you know, there’s two there were two big research projects that showed very clearly that saturated fat was was preferable. But they were both buried, you know, and it took you know, it was only years later someone reviewed the. So there’s a lot of corruption and a lot of dishonesty that goes on in in in medical research, unfortunately. And I go back to it again is a lot of it’s driven by money and you know. There’s a lot of money in cholesterol and high cholesterol and and the evils of saturated fat. There is not a lot of money in in eating i in a low carb diet. And then, you know, as I always say, follow the money and it’s frustrating.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:26:19] There is another aspect to it as well and that is if I if I, as a doctor have been giving this advice all my professional career, you know, it takes a bit of humility. And and I would I don’t want to cast aspersions here, but doctors egos are not always the smallest of of egos out there in society. There’s not that humility, although, you know, dealing with chronic disease is a humbling experience, particularly if it continues. But, you know, this is now. Now, listen. But there is something there is this great collaboration, Peter. And, you know, I congratulate you and Zoe Eaton, the CEO and Paul Mason defeat diabetes team. This is, I believe, the most exciting public health initiative in 40 or 50 years. Share it with us. Tell us what happened.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:27:13] Well, it was interesting. When I first started with that diabetes, I, I thought I should, you know, talk to Diabetes Australia. I’m a guy with a patient body and and so on. So I, I had a coffee with the with the CEO. And it’s fair to say that that meeting did not go well. We, if we put it politely say we agreed to differ. But yeah, I didn’t get anywhere. And, you know, he was his next pharmacist, very wedded to that sort of pharmaceutical to the to the carbohydrate line. So I sort of, you know, start our, you know, give up on diabetes in Australia. A couple of years ago, they changed their their CEO and brought in a new CEO, Justine Cain, at which I think I’d heard about. But, you know, I didn’t sort of, again, take too much notice. Anyway, out of the blue, she contacted me and said, Look, I’m in Melbourne next week. You know, let’s, let’s, let’s catch up. You know, let’s have breakfast. So, okay. All right. So this rocked up to two breakfast at a hotel in Melbourne, I’m sure. Bacon and eggs. And I thought, well, that’s a good start. And the first thing she said was, you know, what can we do to help you? I wasn’t sure, but I picked myself up off the floor. You know, we had a really great discussion. And then she was very aware that that Diabetes Australia had been dragging their feet on the whole diet thing and and was keen to sort of, you know, offer their, their members, you know, access to, to a low carbohydrate approach. And, and I said, look, yeah, that’s great but you know, you’ve got to get this past your doctors and your, you know, your specialists and so on. Now they’re never going to agree to that. And she says, and we’ll leave that and I’ll leave that to my. She said, you know, I’ve got support from from a number of people. Anyway, So and the one interesting thing that she said, she had a number of interesting things. One of the interesting things she said was the thing we get asked about most, Diabetes Australia is diet and we have nothing to offer. And so, you know, I said, well, well, I can fix that. So, I mean, she she was at pains to say, look, we are you know, we are never going to say that everyone should be, you know, on on a low carb diet or if they do. And I said, no, absolutely. And you’re quite right. You know, everyone’s different and there’s no one diet for everyone and so on. But what she did want to do was offer an option, you know, of an offer, an alternative that if people wanted to go down that path and there would be a process by which they could that they could do that. Anyway, so we started chatting and, you know, I thought, this is, you know, this is going to happen, you know, this is great. Anyway, these organisations, you know, I mean, she’s terrific and they’ve got some great people there, but they’re, you know, they’re complex organisations, let’s put it that way, with a lot of stakeholders and it took a long time, probably took eight months to go through the process of, of approvals and, and so on. And then finally a few months ago we announced a partnership between the Feed Diabetes and Diabetes Australia. This is the first time they’ve ever endorsed a diet, even though, as I said, they’re careful not to say it’s for everyone. And and that’s been you know, I think that’s as you mentioned, that’s a real breakthrough. It’s an acknowledgement by the diabetes body that a low carb approach is a valid approach. Now the next step is to, you know, get to be convinced that it’s the best approach, but at least it’s a valid approach. And we presented a lot of scientific evidence. Which as you know, there is lots and. And I were happy to and I finish up you know, I had to meet with the with the diabetes specialists, endocrinologists and the Australian Diabetes Society and so on. And and, you know, they were all comfortable with that with what we were doing. So it’s interesting. I mean, we we announced that a few months ago and, you know, we’ve had a bit of an uptick in subscriptions, You know, but more importantly, I think, you know, we’ve just been contacted by a lot of different organisations and, you know that the health funds, the primary health care networks, businesses, different organisations. And what it’s done, I guess, has given us a bit of a seal of approval, a bit of a to show our program, and that’s opened a lot of doors for us and we’re really excited about about that. We’ve managed to get some philanthropic funding in as a result. And so I think it’s, you know, it’s it’s a first step and an important step and very exciting. So but there’s still a long way to go. You know, it’s a long way to go to convince just three groups, really professional groups at. We need you to win over. One is the doctors, GP’s and specialist diabetes specialists. And interestingly we are running the first course for GP’s in October, a one day course in in Sydney for for GP through the College of General Practice being served accredited. There’ll be more details coming about that, coming out about that in the next few weeks. The second group is the Diabetes educators who are part of Diabetes Australia, but sort of have some independence. And while they’re not really supposed to be talking about diets, they obviously do. And and they’re still very much wedded to the traditional carbohydrate approach. And the third group is the dieticians. Who’ve really been the ones who pushed the the low fat, high carbohydrate line for forever. Really?
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:33:10] Hi, Dr. Ron. Here it. I want to invite you to join our unstressed health community. Now, like this podcast, it’s independent of industry and focuses on taking a holistic approach to human health and to the health of the planet. The two are inseparable. There are so many resources available with membership, including regular live Q&A on specific topics with special guests, including many with our amazing and Stress Health Advisory Panel that we’ve done hundreds of podcasts over listening to with some amazing experts on a wide range of topics. Many are world leaders, but with membership we have our own stress lab podcast series where we take the best of several guests and carefully curated specific topics for episodes which are jam packed full of valuable insights. So join the Stress Health community. If you’re watching this on our YouTube channel, click on the link below or just visit on stress health.com to see what’s on offer and join. Now I look forward to connecting with you. Who also, Peter, I would venture to say they wrote the Australian Healthy Eating Guidelines in 2013 and if anybody bothered to look at the website at the time they was sponsored by the Grains and Legumes Council, by Campbell’s Soup, by Nestlé, by Campbell. You know, the list goes on and on. So the dieticians of Australia have, I believe, quite a lot to answer for, but sorry, I shouldn’t.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:34:48] Do they? I agree it’s challenging, particularly the younger dietitians now are much more aware. They’re all a bit scared to pop their head above the parapet. So I think but there there’s a lot more interest in the young from younger dietitians. Unfortunately, they’re not the leaders of the profession yet and they’re not the you know, that the professors at university and so on. But even there, there’s gradual change. And interestingly, James McKee’s group, the Australian Men’s Health Practitioners, metabolic health practitioners are running a course on low carb eating for dietitians similar to the course we’re doing right now. So, you know, there is there is progress. It’s slow. It’s frustratingly slow. It really, you know, so many times, you know, we hear of a patients who, you know, do their own research or talk to, you know, people have been through the low carb approach, go to their doctor or their dietician. So I’d really like to try this low carb approach. And the doctors is on. I’ll drop dead of heartache tomorrow. Or, you know, the dietician said, no, no carb. You need carbs to live in out, which you don’t. So it’s a real, you know, you sort of it’s so frustrating. You’re battling against your own profession. You know that, You know, that should be very well.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:36:07] Well, I, I actually I also should have mentioned James. James McKee, of course, former Australian of the Year, who we’ve had on the program several times. And together with yourself such high profile people championing this is a real hope. But you mentioned professions and your profession and and it’s interesting because we also recently did a an interview with Dr. Lorraine Laidlaw Smith, what was just an amazingly inspiring, wonderful, wonderful woman and a wonderful story because this this dovetails into another theme of this podcast, and that is workplace wellbeing and specifically doctors wellbeing. And here was a Loreen with fatty liver disease, overweight, high blood pressure, obstructive sleep apnoea, burnout in the practice which which Tabitha Healy informed us 44% of doctors suffer from burnout characterised by the acronym, i.e. disengaged, ineffective and exhausted. And after 35 years of practice and burnt out, she’s approached low carb, turned her entire life around, including her husband, who’s a GP with Parkinson’s and and now loves medical practice and is just got so much to offer the public for the next, hopefully ten, 20 years of her life. What a story. I mean, I think there’s a story here about let’s improve doctors health and that will roll on to practice to public health. Great to hear you talk about running this program.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:37:48] Yeah, look, I think, you know, it’s really important. I think most GP’s, you know, I mean being a GP is, is by far the toughest job in medicine. You know, don’t let any other, you know, fancy, highly paid. Specialists tell you otherwise? You know, general practice is bloody tough. And, you know, you see lots of patients, you don’t have enough time. And most GP’s I talk to, you know, those who’ve been doing it for some time, you know, I mean I really struggling, you know, I mean, as I said, they don’t have enough time with the patient. They don’t feel as though they helping their patients enough. You know, you talk to people like Lorraine and David, I’m one in the UK, is another classic example of someone who was ready to retire. He said he stopped enjoying medicine. It didn’t feel as though he’s doing much for his patients. He was writing out scripts and that and that was it. And then all of a sudden, you know, sort of a he had an experience with with low carbon and changed his whole practice. It changed his own life, but changed his enjoyment of medicine. And all of a sudden he was actually able to to help people and get results and so on rather than just bandaid stuff. I mean, I think the reason most of us do medicine is we actually want to help people. And I know that sounds very altruistic and all that.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:39:03] But I think it’s absolutely wrong.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:39:04] I think we do, you know, and obviously it’s it’s intellectually challenging, all those sorts of things. But, you know, I think underlying it, that’s why we that’s what we’re trying to do. And but unfortunately for many doctors in their practices, you know, they if they’re realistic about it, they they’re probably not doing a lot to help their their patients. You know, they just adding more and more medications to them. And, you know, they had a a medication to to, you know, to counteract the side effects of the previous medication and so on. And and and here is something, you know, with this this low carb approach that, you know, really is exciting. And and you can see results and, you know, it’s it makes a massive difference to to to people’s practice. And you know I talk to you know are so excited you know they’re you know they’ve been in practice 30 or 40 years. And you know, as you know, I was talking to a doctor recently and he is basically semi-retired. He says, you know, I just wish I’d known this 30 years ago or have, you know, done so much more good for my for my patients and so on. So it’s never too late. But yeah, I think I think doctors, doctors, health, you know, most doctors are on the traditional, you know, low fat carbohydrate diet. Many of them are overweight. Many have type two diabetes, the same as the rest of the population. You think, you know, doctors should be immune to that sort of stuff. But but they’re not. And a lot of autoimmune disease, a lot of a lot of issues. So there’s that personal aspect. And then there’s also just the enjoyment of the job. And, you know, it’s so rewarding. You know, I mean, every now and then I, you know, I must admit, you know, I’m probably like, you know, I, I get frustrated and I feel as I’m Basham hit against a brick wall and, you know, to to try and, you know, make an impact and so on. And then, you know, then I get a text or an email or some message pops up on Facebook saying, you know, you know, I put my diabetes into remission. You know, I’ve lost eight kilograms. So I feel fantastic. You know, I just want to say thank you. Yes. Okay. And I’ll keep going.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:41:11] When was the last time you prescribed an antidepressant and got that kind of response from somebody or anything for that matter? But yeah, look, it’s.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:41:18] It’s the mental health is really interesting right now. And I’m sure you’ve had people on the program talking about mental health and so on. But, you know, there’s more and more evidence coming out that that mental health is significantly impacted by diet. You know, this whole metabolic psychiatry, they call it. And, you know, there’s a couple of great books out by Chris Palmer and George Reid. And and there’s a number of I’m told there’s a dozen large research studies going on around the world looking at that, the impact of diet and particular low carb diet on on different mental health issues. I mean, I, I had an experience I had a lady come up to me in the in the coffee here at university one day and she said the doctor brought and I said, should I George allegedly. And I said, that’s good. And she said, Ah, but that’s not what I want to talk to you about. Go on. You know. but I say this lecturer did her biopsy at this time and she said to my husband and I’m massive cricket fans and because of you we we change our diet to a low carb diet. And my husband’s been bipolar all his life and he’s now off all his medication. And I just want to say thank you. You’ve changed our lives.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:42:31] Wow. Wow.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:42:32] Wow. You know, and and more and more stories like this about bipolar disease, schizophrenia, depression, anxiety, you know, it’s such it’s so exciting. I mean, I think, you know, because, as you say, you know, any depressants, I mean, you know, they really they’re not that effective. And he is Yeah, he is a simple means of of having a massive impact on these, you know, these issues that you mentioned Parkinson’s before. You know there’s some really exciting have an. It’s about Parkinson’s. About Alzheimer’s, you know. No drug works for Alzheimer’s. We’ve shown that, you know, there’s been billions and billions of dollars spent trying to develop a drug. And yet there’s some good studies showing that diet is effective. But again, no money.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:43:18] Well well, that’s so interesting. You should mention that, because we have recently done a program with Patrick Holford and another amazing public health initiative is Food for the Brain, which I’m very, very proud to be associated with as well. And in that and we’ve also done a program with Professor Julia Rutledge in New Zealand who’s written a wonderful book about food and the brain. But listen, you also look, your background in sports medicine is legendary. You’ve been associated with the elite teams in the world and particularly the Australian Olympic team for many years. And you’ve just come back from Paris 2024. And Australia has done amazingly well. I mean, a country of 25 million coming forth, I think with time. Tell us about what was your impression?
Dr Peter Brukner [00:44:12] Well, look, it was a wonderful Olympics. I mean, Paris is a great city, but I did a fantastic job. I mean, the iconic venues, you know, the Eiffel Tower, the Grand Palais and all these all these different things. I mean, just to get to this fabulous Chinese music hearing, we better.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:44:33] Tell James tell James you’re on the podcast. He’s episode came out last week.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:44:37] That’s right. And so Paris was was fantastic. And they and they really did a good job of designing the venues around there around the, you know, the city. And there was a great atmosphere around it. Presumably, there weren’t as many people as usual in Paris. You know, the whole operations leave town for 4th August because it it’s hot and so on. And I think they all left a bit early to say they escaped the Olympics, but I’m sure they regret it now because it was such a buzz. And, you know, the events were well, it was well run. The crowds were terrific. The atmosphere was great. It was easy to get around the transport system in Paris. It’s just I don’t think we waited longer than 2 or 3 minutes for a metro, all like, you know, Fortnum was great. So, yeah, the real winner was Paris. I thought, you know, I’ve been to a lot of Olympics now and always thought that Sydney and Sydney 2000 and London 2012 were the best too. But I reckon Paris has given them a good run for their money. And then then obviously, you know, Australia doing well was was terrific. You know, we always do well and swimming but you know lots of other I went to to one of just foxes gold medals in the canoe slalom and such a exciting spectator event and athletics is my main passion. I went to every night of the athletics and we did you know better than ever there for for Australia. So it was yeah, it was was fantastic too. And my younger son lives in Paris, so I had had the spare room in their apartment, so that was a side of harmony and accommodation but was lovely to spend time with, with, with them. And they have a little, little ten month old baby. So we we had to pick and charity nights are two of us a go to the add to the athletics and no swimming or whatever and some one of us would stay home and babysit. So it was very nice.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:46:29] Fantastic. Why do we do so well? What do you think it is about Australia that makes us do so well? We punch so far above our weight.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:46:37] Yeah. Look, I think there’s a number of different, different reasons. One is that sport is big in Australia. You know, sports an integral part of society in Australia, probably never more so than in most other countries. I think, you know, we, you know, I always sort of say that I, you know, I knew, you know, well, when I saw that I’d up when I, you know, started reading the front page before the back page, but I still haven’t happened. So I still feel that you could have a great look at the front page as a really big sports story on the front page. But, you know, it’s interesting. I heard a great saying once it you know, sport, the back page is all about, you know, people’s triumphs. And the front page is all about people side and people’s disasters and so on.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:47:20] Right. Interesting.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:47:21] That’s right. Good. But so are any sport is a big part of our and obviously our climate helps that and we’re in a really wealthy country and so on. So we have good facilities and things. So I think that’s that’s a factor. I think government support has been very, very good. You know, the Australian should sport, you know, 3 or 4 years ago I was set up and the different state institutes and governments, you know, I think there’s a lot of argument about, you know, elite funding of elite sport compared to funding of that of the community sport and on I know I think they’re both very important and and I think doing well at Olympics certainly inspires younger people to to get out and play sport and which is. Such an import. Not everyone can be an Olympian, but everyone is going to benefit from playing sport. And so I think, you know, sport is is a really important part of our culture. I think also in the sports science and sports medicine world, obviously I’m biased there, but I think, you know, Australia has always led the way in many sort of innovations and that and so on. So we’re we’re right at the forefront of that. So yeah, I think and we’re passionate, you know, we’re passionate about our sport. And yeah, it’s very exciting to say access do so well and I enjoy rubbing it into my arm, especially my British colleagues who finished below us in the medal tally despite spending a huge amount of money and and having, what, three times our our population. But you know I don’t rub it in too much.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:48:50] But listen there was one aspect there of diet that we did hear the story of, and that was the the sort of promotion as is happening so much out there in the media of this plant based diet. And I can’t help but wonder whether this environmental story is an excuse for promoting ultra processed food plant based will be to the 21st century, what processed food was to the 20th century.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:49:18] It’s very cynical of you.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:49:21] So what did you think? I mean, what I mean, the athletes must have been very upset.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:49:25] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, athletes are not stupid, you know? I mean, they they and as you said, it’s all part of this. You know, there’s a big emphasis on the environment. You know, they had, you know, cardboard beds and they handed out paper mattresses and all this sort of stuff. And and so and one of the one of the myths around around the environment is that plant based eating is better for the environment than than meat. And as you know and I know that’s a load of nonsense, the best way for the environment is a responsible agriculture. And it’s actually very, you know, advocates and people sort of suddenly, you know, think that the reason the environment’s going down the tubes because cows are farting or belching or something, you know, I mean, cows have been fighting and belching for a long, long time. And, you know, nothing’s changed there and so and so. But it’s a very convenient, as you say, very convenient thing to to blame and to blame food or and, you know, animal based food as a cause of of the environment. And there’s absolutely no evidence to support that. But you know it’s it’s it’s the common belief and it’s been encouraged by, as you say, by by big business, by big food. You know, there’s a lot of money in processed and ultra processed foods. And most plant based foods, you know, that are quite, you know, highly processed and and and, yeah, you got to look at this fake meat and this fake this and like that, which, you know, it’s been a disaster by itself. They haven’t done well. These companies have to give credit to people actually not terribly stupid. But yeah, so the athletes act because the issue with with with athletes and with with all people really is that protein is a really important part of a bad diet, you know, and it’s for muscle building and for muscle maintenance and that and, and body structure and so on. And plant protein is just not as effective as animal protein. I mean, we we know that no one argues that, you know, you can if you put together particular mixtures of plant protein, you know, you can get a little bit of profit, but it’s just not as effective as as animal protein. And and the vast majority of athletes take in a lot of animal protein and and you know with with very good good effect and there’s always going to be the odd you know plant based athlete and if they as I said if they’re really careful and they’re and so on, they can get a reasonable amount of protein. But it’s far better to get to get it from animal protein. So they they arrived at the village and and there was very little. Animal products there and typically very little meat. And, you know, I think you’re allowed to little shops or something like that. And that was about it. If you’re a sort of a, you know, 150 kilogram weightlifter or something, that’s not going to be very satisfactory. So there were so many complaints I had to shipping a whole lot of whole lot of meat in there. And I think, you know, by the time of the second week and so on, things were things had improved. But it was, you know, a reminder that there are forces out there that unnecessarily concern with your health and they have ulterior motives. And, you know, I think blaming the, you know, the global warming or our environmental issues on on on cows is just you know, it’s it’s disgraceful really, you know, and it’s detrimental to people’s health. And you know, they the best the best form of protein it’s a is and it comes from animals. You know, and it’s interesting because they you know, the plant based people or the vacances we used to call them, you know, they sort of lost the argument about about health. And they’re and, you know, so now they’ve sort of jumped on the environment argument to try and justify, you know, and and really when you’re looking to the side so that there there is no evidence for that. So it’s look, it is very frustrating because this obviously has a lot of money in this. And, you know, there are a lot of people out there who are really pushing hard to to get everyone eating these highly processed plant based foods. And and it’s not helpful for our for our health or our or our environment, really, you know, because it requires a lot of a lot of energy to to to produce those those things. So yeah. That they quickly shut that down and they are in the village and in Paris and things improved. But it’s not a bad place to eat As It’s interesting. I mean, you know, there’s you know, there’s there’s a thing called the French paradox that you probably heard of that, you know, we we we, you know, identified French food as being very unhealthy, you know, as we think as well as croissants and baguettes and and and pastries and so on. And yet the French have the lowest incidence of cardiovascular disease in Europe. And and people you know, when people don’t understand something, they call it a paradox. You know, they say, it’s the French paradox, you know, that’s we and we don’t understand. But the reality is, is that, you know, they’re they they eat a lot of butter, you know, which is very healthy. You know, their questions are full of the butter and so on that their their baguettes are very different to our white bread here. You know, I mean, you get you got to eat on the day that you get it. They’re all said it goes off. Where is our white bread here? You know, it’s full of preservatives. You know, you can you can keep it for two weeks and it you’re still at it, you know, So, you know, they use a different flour, they use a different techniques and so on. So I lost a couple of kilograms when I was in Paris despite having a croissant every morning. And then, you know, that, you know, occasional baguette and saw, which is more than I would have back home. But you know when in Rome or what in Paris is. Yeah, do what I do and I finish up losing weight, you know, which was, which was interesting. So but it’s it’s a joy, you know to the one thing that I you that well is coffee. Yes. No, it’s for this country. We have the best coffee in the world. And that’s. Yeah. You think France, you know coffee that you know just Italy’s nearby and you’d have decent coffee. But anyway. Yeah.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:55:59] Yeah.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:56:00] Because well, problems as I say.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:56:01] First of all from the. Well Peter, listen, you talk about forces working against health and the powerful forces, but geez, it’s such a pleasure and a privilege to have you on the program as a as a force that’s really making a difference in our country. And I want to thank you for joining us today and thank you for absolutely everything you are doing and have done. Thank you so.
Dr Peter Brukner [00:56:22] Much. It’s been a pleasure and always a pleasure.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:56:25] It is really a sad reflection on the medical profession, I have to say. I mean, it is one thing to make the observation that the medical profession over the last 40 or 50 years has unwittingly and I say unwittingly, because they really have the best intentions. There is no question about that. But they have unwittingly presided over the worst epidemic and preventable chronic diseases in human history. And this diabetes story is showcasing the very worst of modern medicine and the ridiculous state that we have come to in our health care system when something as simple as cheap, as sustainable. As effective as a low carb, healthy diet is not embraced by the medical profession is a sad reflection on that profession. It is mind numbing when you go to see your doctor, do not ask them the question. What do you think about a low carb diet? Ask them the question why they do not embrace something that is clearly so effective. And I don’t think I can say state that any plan or in any other way. Why do they not? Because we’ve done programs with James McKee, former Australian of the Year with Dr. Lorraine Laidlaw Smith, an incredible story of a doctor turning around their own health and in the process changing the way they had practised medicine for 35 years where they had reached a point of burnout. And now, after 35 or 38 years of practice, I have set up a clinic with low carb, healthy fat ketogenic diet and are turning people’s health around and receiving feedback from their patients, which is so rewarding, so empowering, so wonderful that they go to work every day and cannot wait to go to work. Now, I’m not sure there are all that many doctors practising allopathic or prescription medicine that could say the same thing. So we will have links to defeat diabetes. Incredible that it only has 10,000 members. But this is about early adopters and the tidal wave of response will no doubt follow. And I congratulate, as I’ve said, Peter, Peter Bruckner, James McKee, Lorraine Leo Smith. Zoe Eaton, CEO of Defeat Diabetes. Paul Mason, who I would love to get on the podcast listening to this. I mean, Paul is just brilliant. You should see his YouTube clips. Paul. Dr. Paul Mason They get hundreds of thousands of views for very good reason. This is an exciting initiative. And I would also add that Food for the Brain, which has been co-founded by or founded by Patrick Holford, who we did a programme on just a few weeks ago, is another of those most exciting public health initiatives. We are going to turn public health around. Sadly, I don’t think it’s going to come from above. It is going to come from initiatives from people like Peter Brukner and Patrick Holford, and I hope this podcast is a small part of that. I hope this finds you well. Until next time, this is Dr. Ron Erlich. Be well. Feeling stressed. Overwhelmed. It’s time to unstressed your life. Join the UN, stress health community and transform stress into strength. Build mental fitness from self-sabotage to self-mastery. And together, let’s not just survive, but thrive. Expert led courses, curated podcasts, like minded community and support and much more. Visit on stress health.com today. This podcast provides general information and discussion about medicine, health and related subjects. This content is not intended and should not be construed as medical advice or as a substitute for care by a qualified medical practitioner. If you or any other person has a medical concern, he or she should consult with an appropriately qualified medical practitioner. Guests who speak in this podcast express their own opinions, experiences and conclusions.
