Genevieve Hawkins: Psychological Safety, Meaningful Conversations & Mental Fitness at Work

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00:00 – Welcome & Introduction to Genevieve Hawkins
03:40 – Genevieve’s career journey from OT to corporate advisor
06:30 – Physical vs. psychological health: A holistic view
09:30 – What makes conversations “meaningful” at work
15:00 – How conflict arises and why it must be addressed
21:00 – The concept of “multiple truths” and mutual understanding
30:00 – The impact of managers on employee mental health
34:00 – Psychosocial risk and modern workplace legislation
38:00 – Proactive vs. reactive mental health strategies
43:00 – What is restorative justice in workplace settings?
50:00 – Practical tips from “Shrinking Elephants”
52:00 – Final reflections on connection and curiosity

Genevieve Hawkins: Psychological Safety, Meaningful Conversations & Mental Fitness at Work

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:00:01] Hi, Dr. Ron here, and I want to invite you to join our Unstress Health Community. Now, like this podcast, it’s independent of industry and focuses on taking a holistic approach to human health and to the health of the planet. The two are inseparable. There are so many resources available with membership, including regular live Q&As on specific topics with special guests, including many with our amazing Unstress Health Advisory Panel. Now we’ve done hundreds of podcasts all worth listening to, with some amazing experts on a wide range of topics. Many are world leaders, but with membership, we have our Unstressed Lab podcast series, where we take the best of several guests and carefully curate specific topics for episodes, which are jam-packed full of valuable insights. So join the Unstress Health community. If you are watching this on our YouTube channel click on the link below or just visit unstresshealth.com to see what’s on offer and join now. I look forward to connecting with you. Hello and welcome to Unstress Health. My name is Dr Ron Ehrlich. Well, after 40 plus years in healthcare, in holistic health practise, and observing public health gradually going down, I mean, the epidemic of chronic preventable, chronic degenerative diseases, physical and mental are on the rise, mental health particularly. And so the last few years, the focus has turned to the workplace because after years of frustration. With the healthcare industry, it occurred to me that the workplace is the place where change in public health can really occur. It’s a place where actually good health makes not only sense, but it also makes lots of dollars. So workplace well-being is a major focus of Unstress Health. And actually, I should say, practitioner health is something that I’m particularly passionate about health care practitioners, but. On the broader topic, unlocking psychological safety and collaboration in the workplace is something we couldn’t all aspire to, not just in the work place, but in our lives. My guest today is Genevieve Hawkins. Now, Genevieve has been an occupational therapist for over 20 years. She’s worked with corporations, large and small, and she has written two wonderful books. I think the titles almost speak for themselves. The first was Mentally at Work, Optimising Health and Business Performance Through Connection. Connection, boy, you know, as we talk about in this episode, connection is the key for us all, whether we’re talking about work or everyday life. And her more recent book is Shrinking Elephants, Untangling Workplace Conflict to Unlock Value for All. It’s a wonderful conversation. It’s wonderfully empowering conversation, a very important one. When we consider that stress levels are really high in general, engagement in the workplace is really low. And it turns out having meaningful conversations is the key. And this will give you some insight into how we go about doing just that. I hope you enjoy this conversation I had with Genevieve Hawkins. Welcome to the show, Genevieve. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:03:39] Thanks, Ron. It’s great to be here. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:03:41] Genevieve, your work is something that I’m also very focused on after being in clinical practise and unlocking psychological safety and collaboration in the workplace sounds like something we should all be aspiring to. And I know you’ve written two books which we’re going to talk about, but I wondered if you might share with us a little bit about your journey, which took you into this space and got you to be writing these two books. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:04:06] Yeah, thanks Ron. Look, I think that, well look, so my career started as an occupational therapist, so I started in a clinical space and I was really conscious, even right back then, whilst OTs work in lots and lots of different areas, that I always had this interest in the mental health side of things and was kind of always curious on this idea of stress and that concept of saying it’s not what happens, it’s how we react to it that becomes the challenge for us. And so I’ve always had that sort of, how do we actually help people thrive? Rather than just survive in a work context. And so as an OT clinically, and then spending actually a fair bit of my time in workers’ compensation, and then in prevention, so in health, safety, and wellbeing, and really kind of dealing with people in lots of different industries and organisations, both working internally and externally, kept on seeing these challenges with how do people navigate the complexity of the workplace and interacting with other human beings and how do people. Get the best out of it, which is really, you know, it goes through those two couple of points in time and writing mentally at work actually came out just as COVID hit. Well, in fact, it came out in the first year of COVID, but I wrote it before COVID was knowing that this was what was gonna happen, but I could still see there was this tsunami that was going to hit us around levels of ill, you know mental ill health, particularly anxiety and depression. And I’m thinking, gosh, we really need to get more literate here. We really. Need to understand on a practical basis the things that we can do both individually and organisationally. And then the second book on conflict and untangling conflict came about, and they’re both connected, very, very connected topics, but I was reflecting on what are the most common things that people were coming to talk to me about in the context of grappling with the workplace and navigating conversations with other people was this constant theme. Hence, Hence the second book, and who knows where the third and fourth will come from. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:06:06] It’s so interesting because, you know, I imagine in your early years in occupational as an occupational therapist, you were very much focused on physical well-being, you know, making sure that people weren’t injuring themselves in the workplace. But of course, the lines is that true? I mean, because the lines between physical and mental have become very intertwined. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:06:28] They are very connected and in fact as an OT, we would always deal with the holistic side of things. So I mean this is one of the things that I loved about the profession was that so we studied psychiatry subjects as well as studying psychology as well, as studying all of these different things around the anatomy and physiology of the body. So we’re always looking at all of it. But no doubt some, you know, there’s a level of the work that OTs will do that was physically based but the question was always for us as OTs, how do we help people in their occupations to be their best in their occupation and of course occupations can be as simple as daily living so helping people to shower and dress or cook a meal as well as their occupation from a work perspective. So it was always. Combination of both and invariably what I found in a clinical setting to start with was that in wanting to help someone I actually had to understand a bit about who they were as a person before I could then go okay how do I try and connect in with that and get them to identify what really their goals are in relation to their occupation and what their motivation is get there. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:07:40] Well, the word holistic is something that I’ve been part of in my professional life for over 40 years, and people have all sorts of images of what holistic means as some sort of new age philosophy. But I often say it just happens to be the way the body works and it happens to the way that the planet works. So there’s nothing new age about either of those. But I also think and I’ve had the pleasure of speaking to lots of HR people And I think there has probably never been a better time. To be in a chart or occupational health and safety because all the things you always thought were important are now becoming legislation. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:08:18] Agree, agree. I think there is just this important time that finally there’s I mean there’s a combination of things one legislation’s changing but also at a point where research that’s coming out is really starting to open up far more about how we understand to your point about the connection the mind you know the mind heart body gut you know that three brains are how a whole body works. As someone said to me recently it feels like it’s a point, where Eastern wisdom is made in Western medicine. And actually realising the commonality between the two on this whole idea of how our bodies work. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:08:55] It’s interesting because I’m sure you’ve been reading the Gallup is an organisation that does lots and lots of research and has identified that stress in the workplace is really high. I mean, in America, it’s as high as I think over 50% of the workforce are highly stressed, but Australia and New Zealand are not that far behind. And they talk about reducing stress by improving engagement and improve engagement by having regular, meaningful conversations. What kind of conversations do you think we need to be having? 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:09:30] So many conversations, Ron. So, in fact, it’s my tagline, my taglines, helping people have the conversations they need to have. Yes, I know that. I know, and then… 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:09:39] I know that. And in the context of what Gallup have established, that the answer to reducing stress and improving engagement is to have those regular meaningful conversations. The question obviously becomes, what are those meaningful conversations? 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:09:55] Yeah and in fact if we take a step back from that and going why would Gallup be suggesting that this is really important and and some of the stuff that’s coming out where you know Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs which people have kind of were growing up and saying well okay it’s water and food is for survival and then we get to these other things and now in fact it’s like oh no connection with others is as important to food and water for our basic survival, and we are absolutely tribal by nature. When we think about that as being tribal by nature, the first part for me around conversations is I need to feel that I kind of belong in the tribe. Like that’s kind of my first level of conversation. I need belong in a tribe. So one of the things I say to people is if you’re working with a group of people, you should find out what you have in common with them that has nothing to do with work. Nothing to do work, but individually find out what you’re having in common. So not just find out about them. But going, so what do we have in common, Ron? So like, if I go, you know, let me ask you these questions. So this could be a bit of an experiment here, Ron. And so to, you now, people listening, we have not done this research before and I have no idea how this is actually gonna go. But I haven’t said to people, you start with, all right, let’s, and this is slightly artificial to speed it up, but you go, I wanna tell you, here’s some of the things that I love talking about that have nothing to do with work. And I wanna see whether we have those things in common or not. And so I love cats. So I have a cat at home and I love bush walking. So I’ve been starting to get out and do bush walking, I love cooking and always happy to share recipes around cooking and I loved going to musical theatre. So always wanting to chat about musical theatre and I’ll love Star Wars and Marvel. So how about those five Ron, what are the chances that any of those five we have in common? 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:11:49] Look, I think we’ve I think we’ve ticked four. I was a bit worried. Oh, I was a little bit worried when you opened up with the cat. But but when you went to bushwalking and cooking and, you know, and I love that. And yes, I can see how that would immediately connect us. And and so, yes, so that’s. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:12:08] So that’s where it really starts. So when we can go, oh, we have this thing in common, then we formed a tribe, so to speak, with each other, which means that I know if I come into work and I can say, hey, Ron, I just cooked this amazing chicken salad recipe on the weekend, it was so good, and we swap a recipe or we have a conversation. So it could be, often a common thing we talk about in Australia is sport, although I often say to people, you’ve gotta be careful there. Because not everyone likes sport, but often pretend to because they think they need to in an Australian context. So be careful in assuming that, sorry. But so finally something I have in common. So that’s the first sort of conversation level. We have tribal conversations. The second thing is I need to feel like I belong in this tribe and not just belong, but I am valued in this Tribe. So the second part of conversations that we need to have particularly in the context of work, but actually also in our personal relationships. Making sure you understand how I value you. And so we get caught up in waiting to give feedback that’s good, that is with something really, really big that someone does. Or all we just say is, oh, thanks, great job. Which is just a little bit of a superficial way of chatting. Whereas actually, if we can have really great conversations about all the little things. So I know I make this one up, Ron, but you go, Can I just say, you know what I love about our interactions? I love the fact that you always remember that I love green tea. And so that when we’re coming into a meeting and you know I’ve been busy and you’ve grabbed your own cuppa, that you make me a cuppa. And it just makes me feel so valued by you. Can I say thanks? I really appreciate that. So having those sorts of conversations where we go, we really value each other and we value the little things that we could do for each other really, really helps. Um, and so in those conversations and saying, I need to feel like I’ve been seen, I’ve being heard and that I’m matter that next level of conversation is saying, how do we listen to each other? How do I pay attention so that when you’re asking me something or saying something to me, you feel like you have my undivided attention and how do I notice how you are interacting with me? So if you are someone who tends to be pretty gregarious and wanting to have conversations. And then we have a day where we’re sitting there in a meeting and you’re hardly saying anything. That at the end of the meeting, I can say, hey, Ron, just want to catch up. So I couldn’t help but notice in that last meeting that we had that you didn’t really say much and that’s unlike you. So I just want you to check in. So help me understand. So it’s not, don’t ask, are you okay? Cause that’s a closed question that you can easily go, yep, I’m okay. And not say anything, but going. Help me understand what’s happening here at the moment that had you shifting to being really quiet in that meeting. So there’s those layers before you get to that final layer which says we need to have a conversation when we’ve disagreed with each other. And being able to have a decent conversation where we go, I couldn’t help but notice it actually really came to that meeting with different perspectives on that issue Ron and it felt like we’re not kind of. We’re not quite listening to each other. So how do we both now take a deep breath and recognise that we’re sitting on opposite sides of an elephant basically, and how do now kind of navigate our way around that elephant so that we can better appreciate the different realities that we both come to this conversation with. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:15:38] Mm hmm. Yeah, look, and I mean, the elephant. Well, gee, you’ve opened up a can of worms there about conflict and different perspectives. My God, you’re describing society that we are living in at the moment. But I mean in the workplace where we spend a good deal of our time. And I know that managers have a huge impact on people’s mental health. In fact, the research shows that it’s actually. For 70% of people, they believe that their manager has a greater or as great an impact as their life partner and much more than their doctor or therapist. So there’s the power or the importance of meaningful conversations for managers. What’s the cost of avoiding these kind of conflicts? 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:16:27] It is incredibly costly and in fact costly at an individual health level, as well as an individual contribution level at work, as to a layer of the organisation as a whole. So if you’re my manager and I don’t really feel connected with you and I feel that you don’t understand me and you don’t understand where I’m coming from, or I feel that you’re more critical of me than supportive and encouraging of me. Then I start to, I have a lens then that gets put on top of me in front of my eyes that says, you don’t like me, you don t like me. You don’t value me. And so every behaviour that you then exhibit, I interpret from that perspective. And then what that means is that if I’m not able to have a conversation with you about it, it lives in my body. So the tension builds up in my body and I may not even be consciously aware of it. I may not be conscious that I end up going, I just need that, you know, the extra bit of those red frogs or chocolate to get me going before I can actually have a conversation with you. Or I find that I get so stressed that the night before a key meeting with you, I don’t sleep, or whatever it might be. But physically, it bit by bit builds up and as sure you would well know, you go, then that cortisol keeps increasing because my animal brain is seeing you as a foe, not a friend, and I’m just getting more and more tense. That becomes a challenge. Now, of course, that then becomes this vicious circle because then I’m feeling really uncomfortable about being with you. I’m not going to perform as well because I’m on edge. And therefore, even if you didn’t think beforehand, I don’t know about Genevieve and what she’s like, you’re now starting to go, I don’t know about what she is like, because I am not performing as good as I could be because I not as relaxed and feeling safe within the workplace with you And if that gets, again, you’re sort of that, that cost says, I then don’t have the conversations that I should have with you. You as a manager then don’t learn some of the realities of how I can see the world differently and might give you some good insights to solve problems. We don’t solve problems as an organisation as effectively when we don’t actually have that good conversation together. And ultimately, what can happen is either you, as a management, you lose good talent. Because people go, I can’t be bothered with this anymore. I don’t want to work in a workplace where I’m not seen and heard and valued for who I am. Or it blows up into the more full-blown conflict, which then of course has all sorts of other ramifications. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:19:07] Hmm. I mean, the statistics about engagement are pretty sobering, really. I mean I think I’d heard something like 20 percent of people are actively engaged in work. About 60 percent are disengaged and the rest, which should be about 20 percent, are actively disengaging, actually sabotaging. My goodness. But you talk about the there is also a difference between impact and intention, isn’t it? You know, as nowadays, I mean, impact is everything. You may have intended something differently, but that doesn’t matter. This is how I feel. And that’s a really tough place to start from, isn’t it? 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:19:54] It really is, isn’t it? And I think that, that went when and I mean, look, I remember when I first got introduced to this concept, it was a number of years ago, and I remember it being just like this. It was fantastic. And it was fantastic in the context is even though it can be tough to swallow for yourself. It’s really great thing when you go I’ve just been given some feedback that I don’t really love. And people go, you know, we think you’re whatever it might be. And then you like that immediate defensive reaction, if you get a negative bit of feedback is, well, well that’s rubbish, you know, I didn’t do that. Cause of course she’s sitting there saying we judge ourselves by our intent. I mean, this is the thing of saying we charge ourselves by our intent, but we judge others by their impact on us. And so that ability to go, well hang on a minute, if I’m judging others by the impact on. It’s fair enough that they are judging me by the impact on them. And one of the really valuable things within this, so one of things I talk about in this latest book, Shrinking Elephants, is a very, very difficult concept for many people, which is accept multiple truths. Yes. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:21:00] Wow. Now there’s a societal you’ve just hit onto one of the big issues in society, but except say that again, except multiple truths. Truths. What a concept. Go on. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:21:11] And so what we need to accept first of all is that all of us where we wear multiple lenses in front of our eyes and those lenses are influenced by like going right back to the genetics what happens in terms of how we were born and how our brain processes information to how we will brought up what other cultural overlay is there within that space of how brought up. What’s happened in terms of our life experiences, all of those things shaped how we view the world and because they subtly just get built in front of us particularly the ones from when we’re in early childhood we don’t realise that they’re lenses we just go well that’s that’s how the world is isn’t it but your view of the world is different to my view of world now some of it may overlap we may find that we actually have a certain amount in common that some stuff overlaps but other stuff doesn’t and so when we are just assuming that we have the truth that we have seen the world and we go, this is the reality and this is exactly how it is. That’s actually where conflict starts to bubble up. Because if I come in with a very forthright view of going, I know the truth, this is what has happened, and you’ve seen it from a completely different angle, and then you’re going, well, who’s she to say, like, that’s rubbish, she hasn’t got the truth. I’ve got the true, I know it’s the truth and this where it all starts to come undone. So that ability to stay curious to the reality that says we can all see things from different angles is really important. And in fact, I give an example in the book, a very simplistic one, but a really useful one to kind of think about in this idea of how do we see the world. So I had a situation where you go, there was someone that I was working with who thought, who was convinced that I didn’t like them. And they were sitting in the work area that we would sit in. And What they saw was they looked up, they saw me walk into the pod, they were sitting there, and then I turned around and walked back out. So in their mind, they go, Genevieve came into the Pod, saw me, and didn’t wanna talk to me, therefore turned around, and walked. From my perspective, I go, I agree with, I walked into the pod and I agree with the fact that I turned around and walked back out. What I would actually add to that is going, I didn’t even see that person sitting there because as I walked in to the pod, I realised I’d actually left my drink bottle back in the last meeting room. And so I turned around immediately to go back to the meeting room to grab the drink bottle before the next meeting got underway. So there’s commonality in some factual stuff that anyone could observe. So anyone could say Genevieve walked into the pod and then turned around and walked back out. But her interpretation and my interpretation were different. Now, I’m not saying that her interpretation was wrong per se. I’m saying that was her truth. That was her experience that she saw this world differently. And it had to be us being able to have a conversation together. For her to be able to look me in the eyes and go it’s okay this is actually I can understand so I can accept that you could have interpreted it that way that makes complete sense if you’re thinking that I don’t like you. Can I assure you actually I do and here’s what was going on for me at the time. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:24:40] But this is the key. You know, we talk about having regular, meaningful conversations. This is the first part of that is regular, regular. You know it needs to be built into a week of managing someone. And it doesn’t need to be long, I don’t think. No, it needs be significant. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:25:00] It needs to be meaningful. Meaningful, I think, is a key thing. So I talk to people about when you think about leadership, leadership is all about juggling three balls, which is self, team and task. And what we can get caught up in is that we think about the task. And so we think of that management rather than leadership. And we go, I have a job to do. And in this job, here are the tasks that need to be done. And I want people to get them done. But the concept of leadership says, actually our role is to bring out the best in others that enables them to actually get the job done that they need to get done. And so the two aspects of that needs to be, first of all, I need to look after myself because if I’m not coming to work feeling my best, if I am not coming work in a way that says, I feel really grounded and safe within myself and really focused and present, then I’m gonna be my best for the people around me. And then secondly, what I need to think about is if I want to bring out the best in people, then I need understand who they are. So you’re not just a person that’s here to do a job, you’re a human being. And I need you to understand you as a human being and need to understand the team dynamic between people so that I have the sorts of conversations that are really important to the individual and the team to help them feel connected with each other, to help feel excited about the vision together, to help the feel valued for what they contribute to the workplace. And to help them feel safe because of that, that means that they can actually have the right conversations when there’s things that we disagree about. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:26:37] Hi, Dr. Ron here, and I want to invite you to join our Unstress Health community. Now, like this podcast, it’s independent of industry and focuses on taking a holistic approach to human health and to the health of the planet. The two are inseparable. There are so many resources available with membership, including regular live Q and A’s on specific topics with special guests, including many with our amazing Unstress Health advisory panel. Now we’ve done hundreds of podcasts all worth listening to with some amazing experts on a wide range of topics. Many are world leaders, but with membership, we have our Unstress Lab podcast series where we take the best of several guests and carefully curate specific topics for episodes which are jam-packed full of valuable insights. So join the Unstress Health community. If you’re watching this on our YouTube channel Click on the link below or just visit UnstressHealth.com to see what’s on offer and join now. I look forward to connecting with you. Hmm. And I would argue that not just knowing the team, but knowing yourself is a very important part of it. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:27:56] It really is and you know it’s one of the things I say to people when you’re finding yourself really irritated with someone else and your automatic you know story in your head is oh my god you know they are so annoying or so irritating because they always do x to then take a step back and go how did you get curious about yourself first here and you’re going what is it what is really about their behaviour. That is irritating you and what do you think is the story behind that? What is it? Let’s have a look at what you’re used to and some of that is often the, you know I also talk to people about what’s the difference where you know some people really like to talk out loud through their problems so they haven’t solved the problem and they just want to talk aloud with people and talk for a bit of time before they work out. Other people go can you just give me information and can I go away and can i read it and can get a sense of it, then can I come back and give you the answer? And if I’m someone that wants to talk everything through and you’re someone that goes, I just need time to process before we talk, I might get irritated with you because you go, God, they always take so long, you know, they want to go away, they wanna think about stuff before they talk. Whereas actually, I should be going, hang on a minute, if I am finding that difficult, Chances are you’re going to find that difficult with me too, because you’ll be sitting there going, God, he always wants to talk out loud and doesn’t give us time to think before we work through stuff. So getting to know yourself and getting to what you need to be good, but also as a leader, one of the challenges is you need be a chameleon a bit. You need to able to go, I would prefer if people interacted with me in X way. But actually everyone’s different. And if I want to bring out the best in others, I need to find this balance of talking openly with each other to say, okay, Ron, how do we, how do we navigate this? Because I love it upfront to go, let’s bounce around ideas. I appreciate you need some time. I think I need make the commitment to give you some information upfront. And then what I want you to be able to do is have the time to read it to them when we come into the meeting. So I won’t, you know, suddenly landed on you in the meeting, but I want you to come into the meeting then being okay to go, let’s debate that together. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:30:15] I think one of the interesting things now that there is legislation in place, certainly in Australia, that means employers, managers and employers have to minimise or mitigate psycho, psychosocial risk. You know, I almost feel like this is. The workplace has been handed a hospital pass in many ways. That’s a metaphor from rugby, I guess, or football, where you have the ball and a group of people are about to tackle you and you pass it on to the next person so that they get hit and you don’t. Because when you think about mental health in our society and you think of loneliness and disconnection, you know, then that’s the way people, what they’re bringing to work is… From a starting point that’s quite challenging, isn’t it? 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:31:09] Oh, look it is. And this is, I think it is really interesting with the legislation around psychosocial risk. And I can so on the one hand, I understand why legislators are saying we need employers to look at this. Because you do see employers making decisions about how a workplace operates, in which it’s not taking into consideration the, you know, the capability of people, the capacity of people to do the work. That they’re creating an environment of fear, which actually just makes things really, really difficult for everyone involved. So that need for employees to say, you’ve got a responsibility and you need to create some things within the workplace about the work demands and the level of autonomy and all those sorts of things you need think about. I can see why because you look at the challenges in some of these workplaces and go, we absolutely need that in play. But the flip side to your point is that people come to work like Work, you can’t separate work and home. Like we are who we are as human beings and we bring ourselves to work. And even if we try and hide it, we actually bring ourselves to work, but actually in a worst case, cause we’re trying to hide it and we didn’t, you know, get, come up in or present ourselves in a whole different way. But we need to understand, you go back to those multiple lenses. When I have all of those multiple lenses in front of me and I’ve had some level of trauma in my prior life outside of work in some way, shape or form that says I’m particularly sensitive to certain things and I come into the workplace and you don’t know that about me and you’re actually doing things which actually on the surface are quite reasonable things to do and I then fall part, and I’m not coping, but it’s actually because I’ve been triggered by my… Past. So I think it is a really, it is such a complex space. And for me, I mean, for me that’s part of the drive in writing this second book and I suspect possibly pushing into maybe a third one as well on this whole topic. But that what we need to understand is the multi-layered parts of it. So we need help people better understand how they proactively look after their mental health. So as I know, you’d be well aware, you go, yeah, we’ve learned our generation and before we’ve learnt about physical health and the things we need to look after our physical health, but we haven’t systemically learnt about what we need do to look after our mental health and the connection between the two. And so, you know, mental health was often this thing off in the corner that was whispered about and you know we don’t really talk about it, but we have a self responsibility. So we need to improve the literacy of people understanding what can you do to look after your own mental health. And as part of that, to your point before, about learning about yourself, we need to help people continually get curious about themselves and going, when I’m reacting in particular ways, rather than going, I’m gonna blame the environment in which I’m in, that I can step back and go, oh, wow, what’s going on for me? Why have I been triggered by this? And what story is my brain telling me that’s whirring around that’s not really helpful? So we need help with all of that. And… We then need to help leaders to be better at conversation because the starting point for all of this is then going, you need leaders who’ve got that good emotional literacy, mental health literacy, looking after themselves so they can have better conversations with people so they know how to create a sense of connection in the workplace. So they know to have better conversation about problems so that then you can get to that third layer is, okay, systemically in this organisation, what are the things we need to change to make it better for everyone? 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:34:58] There seems to be an irony here in that managers are being asked to manage people’s psychosocial risk and stress levels, where arguably they are more stressed than anybody. And you mentioned survival. Are you in survival mode or in thrive mode? What are you seeing? I mean, let’s say before you have your impact on the workplace, when you enter organisations, what are some of the strategies for mental health. That you see in the workplace? Are people being very proactive? Are they waiting for a fire? Are they putting out fires as they happen? 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:35:36] What’s the story in the workplace? So there’s a mixture. And I agree, by the way, with your comment about saying that, like, it feels like there’s a whole lot of people at senior levels who are barely coping themselves and are struggling. And therefore, because of that, then they’re not actually able to do what needs to happen in the organisation. So, look, I think I would sit there and say there’s a wide variety of responses to what we’re doing from a mental health point of view in organisations. And there are still organisations back in the, I’d say the dark ages of, of, you know, I don’t want to talk about mental health like that. What’s that? And why isn’t it waste until something goes really bad. Um, and then actually go, we need to do something about it. And who can we get in and how do we manage that? I see a lot of organisations, um, in not, not the completely reactive space like that, but in a space which is actually thinking about mental ill health rather than mental health. And so what they’re then doing is saying, we need to educate people. So we wanna do mental health first day training. So that’s been a big thing everywhere to go. Let’s talk about mental health, mental health’s first day as it’s called. But actually what that really is is saying we need train people to pick up if there’s a problem and if there is a problem, give someone support. And so lots of organisations are stuck in that model that I’m saying at the moment that you’re going, we need lots of first aid mental health training and this is great and everyone wants to do this and fantastic and aren’t we great and we’ll have EAP to support people. So an employee assistance programme so we can give people some support if they need it and that’s fantastic. But that’s not enough. Like that’s kind of just base stuff. You start to get to some organisations then fall into I’m going to say kind of a trap that there’s, we’re going to talk more proactively about wellbeing and what good mental health looks like, but it tends to be in the risk of going, well, we’re gonna do some, you know, we’re talking about fruit on fruit bowls on Fridays and yoga lessons and things that you go, isn’t that supposed to help people? Like, isn’t it useful? As compared to going, actually what we need to do, so the smaller number of organisations, but. Very much like the Corporate Mental Health Alliance is really trying to push some of these things as well, saying, how do we improve people’s understanding and literacy around what it takes to look after your own mental health and the proactive things everyone needs to do to look out to your mental health? So then actually going, how do help coach people around that? And then the really, really good ones are really leaning into this interconnection saying, what does psychological safety really, really mean and what is it that goes on within our workplace and how do we redesign how we operate in our workplace, the skillsets that we focus on developing in people so that we can actually create a mentally healthy workplace for everyone. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:38:45] It’s so interesting to hear you speak like that because having been in clinical practise for over 40 years, you know, preventive health is known to be far superior to to just dealing with the problems as they arise. And I’ve come to realise, and particularly last two years, where I’ve focused more on this, is that mental fitness training is the key, I think, building that mental-fitness muscle so that you can proactively deal with it. I know you talk about, I love this term you’ve used, restorative justice in the workplace, and I was intrigued by that. I wondered if you might just explain that a little bit to us. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:39:27] Yeah. So this is in the context of then when things aren’t going well. So we’ve tried stuff, but actually there’s been conflict of some sort. And this could be where ultimately, at its worst end, it could be that it’s a formal complaint about someone’s behaviour, or it could that someone’s put in a workers compensation claim for stress because they’re just not coping in the workplace. And there’s often, I mean, with both of those, there’s usually an investigative process that goes on, et cetera. But fundamentally, what the challenge is, is when someone has put in a workers comp claim for stress or when someone is putting in a complaint, underneath that, what is happening is that that person is saying, I’m not feeling heard. I’m no feeling heard and I’m feeling understood. And I don’t know any other way other than. This next thing, I’m going formal, I am going to put in that formal complaint, I’m gonna go to the union, I gotta go to regulator, I gonna put in workers comp claim, whatever it might be. This idea of restorative justice is all about is saying if I feel hard done by in the workplace, if I fell that I’m being poorly treated, and in fact one of the classics is with bullying, I feel like I’m been bullied. In fact the majority of complaints that come in about bullying end up being unsubstantiated. So there’s not enough evidence to say there was an absolute breach of legislation and bullying definitely occurred. But actually what’s happening is saying, regardless of whether or not there was a finding legally, what you’ve got is two parties who clearly are not connected. They clearly aren’t having the conversations that they need to have. And this is a challenge. And so restorative justice says, I feel that I’ve been seen and heard and that I matter in this organisation. So you’ve been able to listen to me and able to understand what my concerns are. But actually, and if I can do that, so if I’m coming in to help, let’s say it’s you and a colleague who are just going, this is toxic and we’re not too sure what to do. Now, I’m gonna say this simplified because there’s a whole reason why sometimes it doesn’t work or there’s different outcomes. But the aim is to go, okay, Ron, to begin with, I want you to feel comfortable with me. So I’m going to spend some time with you so that you feel like you’ve been seen and heard and understood by me. And then likewise, I’m going to go and do that with the other person to go, I want you to be feel like you’ve been, you know, you’ve you’ve being heard and seen and really understood by me. Then what I want to do is be able to go how to actually help the two of you have the conversation together that you need to have, which is where both of you can actually get to a point of accepting that there are multiple truths that your experience and this other person’s experience are different. You see the world differently. But there’s neither right nor wrong in that. There’s just been, ah, we’ve actually come to the world in this different sort of space. And if I can feel like I’ve been seen and heard and you feel like you’ve been seeing and heard, then there’s a greater capacity to then go, I can get curious about your perspective and I can then help to, and what I do is to sort of help people to navigate the conversation. So you can go, I can understand, like I was saying with the person watching me walking in and out of the room. I can understand why you interpreted my behaviour that way. And then the other person saying, and I can accept that that wasn’t your intent. And if we both feel seen and heard, so if both parties are feeling seen and hurt and going, I understand, I can except each other’s perspectives, then I have a greater capacity to go, actually, I could have done something differently. Each of us could have done something different moving forward. So what does that look like? When we move forward, how do we interact differently? What are the different ways in which we might navigate? What are the commitments we make to each other? And so that, and then actually the last bit of a saying, and then how do we help to hold each other to account for doing the things that we both said we’d need to do? So restorative justice is essentially going, I feel like my relationship with you is restored and I feel because I’ve been heard, because I have been listened to, because I can see you doing something, I feel I can now continue in my relationship with you and on we can go. But likewise, you would feel the same, that you would go, actually, I feel the saying, and I feel heard, and I can accept I did some things that I could have done better, but I love that you’re owning bits too, and together we understand each other better now. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:43:59] So let’s go forward. Well, Genevieve, as I hear you talk about restorative justice, those terms, I kind of think here’s something we need to roll out right across the population at the moment, because we need to get, oh, I feel like I’m being heard. I understand where you’re coming from. I respect your right to say it, etc, etc. I mean, I think that’s so alien to people in this day and age. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:44:25] It’s so alien and I mean if you under you know and as I’m sure you understand from an you know animal brain perspective of what’s happening in our society more you know our animal brain is constantly seeking for pattern and looking for threat and in uncertainty different is threat and so sorry different yeah different is threatened so we kind of get those cortisol rushes when we’re finding an opinion or a view that is different to ours. And in a space where our brains are feeling overloaded because there’s so much information coming at us, it feels safer to sit back in a, I am right view. And that’s what we’re seeing across society now is that people then will get stuck in, I have a view and I believe that’s the right view and of course then the algorithms of social media make that worse because then actually the algorithms help to reinforce, I’ve got the right you and this is the truth. But if you think about it, what the brain always is constantly doing in seeking for threat is it wants safety. It wants to belong, it wants to feel like this is the space of safety here. And safety in an opinion of being right where you believe because of social media that everyone else is right as well, then that makes it feel safer. It’s artificial safety because of course, what happens is that then the tribe, that then they become these them and us tribes of. I’m either agreeing with this or I’m agreeing with that and we’re going to keep clashing. And ultimately what I think that this society needs more of is curiosity. But to get curious, to really, you know, to feel that we can be curious, we have to feel safe. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:46:05] Yeah, no, no. I mean, I agree with you. I think this this high level of stress, which is built into most business models at the moment, you know, the way we get our information is really an algorithm, a business model, you know, it’s part of that it is in in the business models interest to keep us in a level of stress. And when we live in a level of stress, we want certainty. We’re not open to curiosity. We want certainty And that’s coming back to the whole story about, well, let’s get back into the workplace. This is how people are showing up to work. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there’s never been a more important time to be proactive at work than now. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:46:47] Now. It really is. It’s only going to like life is going to continue to be uncertain. You know, the only certainty is uncertainty now in the world in which we live and if you can create a better space at work and you’re right, the business models have always been on the stress of going, I’m not safe unless I’m achieving and so I have to keep, you know, on the on the treadmill of going I’ve got to achieve, I’ve gotta achieve, achieve and we get our dopamine hits each time we achieve but then that’s not And we need to do more. And so what we need to now help leaders to understand in workplaces is saying, that’s not sustainable. You’re going to burn everyone out. And this is actually what we’re seeing, ridiculously increased rates of burnout. We need to help people feel safe and valued at work. And if they feel safe and valued work, then they can get curious. And then they actually can solve all sorts of amazing problems within the workplace. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:47:35] It’s interesting to hear you say at the beginning of our conversation about how connection is more important than food and water. Well, you know, that we could argue about just the semantics of that. But the point is a really important one. And I think the research shows that relationships are the best predictor of longevity, health and wellness. Yes. Real relationships, not our friends on Facebook or followers on Instagram. But our face-to-face real relations. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:48:05] A real sense of connection and it’s not about the quantity of those connections, it is about the quality of them and I think that so I’d go you know connection is as important as food and water that’s not more important but you know. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:48:16] Yes, yes. I agree with you. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:48:18] All in one kind of that holistic view of saying, how do we be better humans in being better humans? We need to really understand about both those, our physical needs and our psychological needs and that sense of connection is absolutely critical and as you said, there’s beautiful long longitudinal research around that and I think there was one, it was Harvard Business school at. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:48:44] It’s already 80 years old. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:48:45] Yes. Yeah. And so they took those two different groups of, in fact, at that time, originally, it was men. So it was 50 years study, you know, men, because that was back in the day, but they said they’ve then added partners as they went along. But, you know, a group that were in really poor economic circumstances and a group that was in very wealthy economic circumstances when they started their careers. And then, yeah, track them through into old age and going, it wasn’t about their economics. It wasn’t about their university qualifications. Wasn’t about the careers they chose, it was about whether or not they had good connected relationships. And if we can feel part of a really good healthy tribe of people, that sense of belonging and community is what will actually buffer us through the roller coaster of a wild life that life is. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:49:34] Well, I know in your book Shrinking Elephants, and I love the byline, Untangling Workplace Conflict to Unlock Value for All. We could really just take the workplace out of there, but just say untangling conflict to unlock the value for all. But I know your focus is on the workplace and you’ve got some tips for how to go about doing that. I know there are 10 steps. Do you want to share a couple of those steps with us? I know you’ve covered some of them already, but let’s just leave our listener with some tips on how we might make behavioural changes in the workplace slash society. Go on. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:50:14] Yeah so I think so so remember to go back to start with connection always so really make sure that you remember go how do I find that connection with you and in fact in the broader context of safety of conflict it’s how do i make it safe for you and I make it safe for your going how do, I make you sure that you feel connected to me and that I value you so keep remembering to find those connections with people. Um, and to stay constantly stay curious to the multiple views of the world, I think is such an important part of it. And, you know, I’d probably add within that in staying curious to yourself is that the moment that you’re convinced that you’ll write is a really good, you know, warning point to go, Oh, hang in a minute, perhaps ask yourself the question, what if I was wrong and just go looking for again, from that curious perspective to go where are those different Where are those different kinds of perspectives on things and how can I help people feel safe enough to be curious with me to explore those together? 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:51:14] Well, look, they’re two really great messages for us to leave our listener with. And I want to thank you for joining me today and sharing some of your knowledge and wisdom with us. And we’ll have links to your site and your two wonderful books. So thank you so much. 

Genevieve Hawkins [00:51:29] Thanks Ron I really loved the conversation probably could have talked all day actually but it was been lovely to have this conversation with you thank you. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:51:37] Well, some great insights there, some great clues and guides as to how to have these meaningful ongoing conversations and how to. How to feel connected with people. Personally, our focus in Unstress Health has been very much in the last two years, particularly on mental fitness training. Your health, your mind can be your best friend or your worst enemy. And Unstress Health, we view a daily cycle of the challenges that we all face. And those challenges are financial, social, workplace. But arguably, if you get health right… Many of those challenges become more attainable. And so when we look at health challenges, we look in our five stressor model, which many of our regular listeners will be familiar with. And if you’re not, I encourage you to go on and explore those. Another part of our daily cycle is recovery, the decisions we make about recovery. And we then focus also in Unstress Health on the five. Pillars of health, sleep, breathe, nourish, movement, and thought. Well, thought is the big one and was the focus of today’s conversation, but mindset is the other part of the cycle and arguably the most important. Are you in a growth mindset or you are just in survival mode? And mental fitness is the key to how you address all those challenges and all those recoveries and connection is also vitally important in that. We will have links, of course, to both those books in the show notes and Genevieve’s site. And I would recommend having a read of those books to get you started on meaningful conversations in the workplace. I hope this finds you well until next time. This is Dr Ron Ehrlich. Be Well. Feeling stressed, overwhelmed? It’s time to unstress your life. Join the Unstress Health community and transform stress into strength. Build mental fitness. From self-sabotage to self-mastery. And together, let’s not just survive, but thrive. Expert-led courses, curated podcasts, like-minded community and support and much more. Visit unstresshealth.com. This podcast provides general information and discussion about medicine, health and related subjects. The content is not intended and should not be construed as medical advice or as a substitute for care by a qualified medical practitioner. If you or any other person has a medical concern, he or she should consult with an appropriately qualified medical practitioners. Guests who speak in this podcast express their own opinions, experiences and conclusions. 

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