Show Notes

• Michael Mobbs website
• The Sustainable House Book
• Sustainable Food Book
• Unstress Episode with Allan Savoury
• Unstress Episode with Helena Norberg-Hodge on the importance of local communities

Timestamps

• [00:00] – Introduction and acknowledgment of traditional custodians
• [01:25] – Welcoming Michael Mobbs and overview of his work
• [03:00] – Michael’s transition from environmental law to sustainable living
• [06:00] – Reflections on the environmental movement from the 70s to today
• [10:00] – Challenges of getting approvals for sustainable projects
• [13:40] – Michael’s sustainable house renovation in 1996
• [18:20] – The impact of urban trees and cooling cities
• [25:30] – Ending food waste in Chippendale: Michael’s compost seat project
• [35:20] – Innovative ways to manage stormwater in urban areas
• [41:50] – The role of solar energy in urban sustainability
• [47:00] – The challenges and opportunities in sustainable energy
• [50:22] – Michael’s advice on healthy living through local food choices
• [52:26] – Closing thoughts and inspiration for sustainable urban living

Michael Mobbs: Sustainable Living in the City

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Unstress. My name is Doctor Ron Ehrlich. Now, before I start, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I’m recording this podcast, the Gadigal people of the Eora nation, and pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging. Well, sustainability has become, very common in, in, in so many areas. In 2024. But, this my guest today has been, involved in this at a very grassroots level and not just talking the talk, but walking the walk for over 30 or more years. And, is a truly inspiring figure. My guest is Michael Mobbs now. Michael began life as an environmental lawyer. But then, well, I don’t want to spoil it. He has put into practice and has been living a sustainable life. That is a true inspiration to anybody who takes that concept seriously. Michael is the author of two wonderful books, The Sustainable House and Sustainable Food. It’s a wonderful and inspiring conversation and story. I hope you enjoy this conversation I had with Michael Mobbs. Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael Mobbs [00:01:25] Thanks for having me.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:01:27] Michael. In Sydney and probably internationally, actually, anyone who has been remotely interested in sustainable living in the city in the last 25 or 30 years would know your name. I certainly have heard of you and read about you. Can you tell us a little bit about your story, how you got started?

Michael Mobbs [00:01:47] I started, engaging with the world, firstly as a lawyer. And then after about 19 years of that, I realised that it wasn’t working for me. I was the first so-called environmental lawyer in 19, 78, I think. And worked for firm that. Is one of the oldest in Australia. And then I set up my own firm, and I really thought that the law offered some guardrails and. It could be relied upon more or less to protect the environment. And it took me a long time to learn that it wasn’t that the law can be used by those who understand it, for both good and for bad. And so I left the law. The immediate, transition from being. The fleeing lawyer. To being somebody doing something more tangible was in 1993 94, as the consultant to the New South Wales Parliament inquiry into Sydney Water, where the Parliament was asking how are we going to manage Sydney’s water, sewage and stormwater? I did the technical and Reuter report and recommendations to Parliament and most of. It was ignored. So. That was frustrating. Ron and I was married with two young children. And I decided to do during a three month renovation when we wanted. A bigger kitchen and bathroom for the growing family to do. The things that were in the report. So in 1996, a disconnect to the house from water, sewage and stormwater. During that three month kitchen and bathroom renovation. Just. For my own self. I had no idea that it would lose over the years to. Conversations with the wider public and to me, sitting here talking to you about it. But it seems to me that the two answer to question when is tough for me was when I was on the phone as a kid and I saw the floods and the drought. When you grow up with Earth’s. Seasons so viscerally and experiencing so first hand. I think it makes you aware of the need to live a way which can sustain you in the context of floods and droughts and so on. You probably never asked me another question because I gave you such a long answer, but I’ll.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:04:51] Know you feel like you’ve given me a great no, no. You’ve got you’ve actually opened up so many other questions there. I mean, the fact that you grew up on the farm, I mean, farming has been a passion of this program, regenerative agriculture. And it’s I’ve been in health care and I’ve recognised the link between food from soil to plate and what a nutrient dense diet means, and what a challenge a nutrient dense diet is given the soils we have. So your foundation of farm and soil there speaks to my heart very closely. I can understand why you would go into perhaps not law but environmental law. Well, I could understand that. And and an environmental law in 1978, I mean, environmental movement in the 70s and 80s. How do you wonder if you had to characterise the biggest change between the way that was viewed in the 70s and 80s and the way it’s viewed today? What do you think the biggest change is there?

Michael Mobbs [00:05:59] I think there’s a loss of hope and trust. In the 70s, there was a huge debate about. Beginning to mine uranium in Australia. Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets to say no. And I was one of them. I remember getting off a train at North Sydney station and walking over the bridge. The train and the bridge were just packed for hours. People got out and did things today because. I think largely because it doesn’t matter what you do. The people in power are more closely connected to the funders, to people in groups which use the political system to maintain the business. People are not silly. They participate in this trust less to political system. So you don’t see the visible display and the displays. You do see a more extreme people tying themselves to bridges and to train tracks and to things like that. The form of expression has become more desperate, perhaps in proportion to the, disappointment that people have in the process for protecting Earth.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:07:28] Do you think the press, I mean, you must have gone into environmental law with, you know, a great deal of optimism and hope, and you were there for 17, 18, 19 years, you said. Do you think the process that you went through in realising that actually the law could work for you and against you and the law working against environment had much stronger influence? Do you think that process that you went through at that time is a process society is gone through over the last 30 or 40 years?

Michael Mobbs [00:08:02] Yeah, I was. That’s a great question. Thank you. I was directly involved in it. But people who weren’t who were going to be teachers or researchers or, bus drivers or. Moms and dads who weren’t as directly involved in like, it took them. And, a lot of. Disappointment of particular projects with people discover they weren’t being listened to. It took decades for people to realise that the system of government in Australia is basically one where the politicians, have been, seduced by the people who are damaging us. And so there’s a proportion at all, an equal reaction from people who sense the truth. And don’t participate in the process much.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:09:03] Hmhm. I mean, I’ve been interested in health care, nutritional medicine, and that has led me into environmental medicine as well. And the thing I realise about our health care system is, and I’ve said this often on the podcast, our current system is a great economic model, but it’s not a very good health model. And, and I think when we come to look at the environment, there’s a lot of similarities there, isn’t it? It’s a great economic model. It’s just not a very good environmental model.

Michael Mobbs [00:09:34] Yeah. The the companies who make drugs, the companies who sell cars, I mean, take tech curves. They used to be train tracks and trims. In much of American cities and in small towns. And it was the car industry which led to them being ripped up so that people were obliged to buy cars. You just have to walk out onto a busy road. In the morning or evening when people are coming and going to work. Particularly in in much of Sydney and other cities in the world where people are condemned to an hour, 30 or more minutes of travelling with so many of their fellow citizens in cars, one to a car, and realise that the car industry won the debate. It’s amazing to me that in Sydney, where we’re still building freeways, when it was realised years and decades ago. That no matter how many freeways you build, they get filled up. By cars, and the only way to move a lot of people. Efficiently is in public transport. But it’s a debate we keep having. Because the people who run those investment and, development companies. Sit down and have dinner with and come share company with the Prime Minister, the Premier. The Environment minister. Somewhere in New South Wales. The most recent example of that is, with the new state government came into power saying it would, slow down coal and gas. Well, the Minister for the environment, when brought against all those written policies and said, oh, no, we need them. So it’s not surprising when that people learn the politicians and mostly can’t be trusted, then the vote has little influence. And I really take any. A brief temporary interest in the elections, when in Australia they’re compelled by law to go and vote. I think if we took away the compulsion, the voting would go from a 98% people voting down to the mid 50s or something like that. People hmhm like you and I. Ordinary citizens. Don’t trust politicians, don’t trust the process anymore.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:12:26] Well it does. It could sound a little depressing. It is a bit depressing, in fact. But this idea that this concept of a government by the people, for the people, has kind of morphed into a government by the corporations, for the corporations, and this whole idea of, of trickle down, we could get into neoliberalism and the market driven economy and all of that. I don’t think it would be particularly, in a wonderful thing to go down. We certainly could. But I think what’s interesting, Michael, is that just as you saw what law could and couldn’t do and decided to and you saw that years before other people did. You decided to do something about it. And in the same way you saw that many years before. We are now catching up with your thinking and thinking, how can I, as an individual, make a difference? I mean, you had a law background, you renovated your kitchen and you must have dealt with council regulations. What are some of the challenges in that process that you went through.

Michael Mobbs [00:13:38] Getting approvals from local, state or federal governments? Requires. Giving those consent authorities the information they need, to make a decision within the laws and regulations to that extent. Those decision makers in government. No different to a computer. If they don’t have a program that enables them to approve a system or project. The the only answer they can give up upon wanting to do something that’s sustainable is no, not because. Though they disagree with an issue soon because they have no decision making power to say yes. So knowing that helped me, so I didn’t. In in 1996, ask for approval for all of the things, particularly recycling sewage, because I knew there was no law empowering the council to approve. I simply asked for approval for two tanks, and they were described as water tanks. And they are. Just one is used for rainwater and the others use for, treating sewage. Actually, it’s a good time for us to talk, Ron, because this morning the trees outside my house were being pruned by contractors. Was. Almost 50 years ago. I was so alarmed at the way street trees were being pruned to make way for electricity cables. That I worked with the council and in this case, I screwed up. Controls and bills. That owns and operates those cables in a straight. To achieve. Bundling with the several was a combined into one bundle. And they are more or less impervious to brushing up against tree trunks and branches. So I was shocked to see. The trees being given a punk hairdo this morning, and I spoke to the young people with the chainsaws. I said, but look at this, we’ve got all the bundling and Oscar in. The council worked out that we could stop all this. 40 years ago. Why are you doing this and this at all? Little Oscar just decided they need two metres between overhead powerlines and tree branches. And we’re just doing what they want to do. So in the public domain where you and I walk on a footpath or drive or walk across or on roads, there are about, I think, 20. All different government says all screen the Sydney water. This the energy companies, the gas companies and they’re all little fiefdoms. And the wage got this amount of the footpath of the road allocated to them. They can do whatever they want. They without approval. These guys were just doing their job as instructed by Ausgrid. So I now have to go and really argue that to stop it happening. It was copied through the most of the Sydney City Council area and that’s why we have in Chippendale. I’m showing with my fingers, my fingers interlocking, tree canopy. That’s called preaching with the tree trees, intersect. We have streets here which are 10 to 15. Or more degrees cooler on a 40 degree days than straight without the show. So trees are free air conditioners. So that part of the street outside my house, those houses will be very hot this summer. And it shows another aspect of the debate about what to do and not to do with natural resources is sometimes, as in the case of tree pruning, here you have to go and argue the case again, the idea of having two metres between great power lines and trees meant effectively, there’s going to be crew cuts of trees all across Sydney, and all that would do is drive up air con uses. People desperately try to kill houses. And, there’s an image taken at night, of Sydney by Sydney City Council. A plane flew over Sydney, between, I think foreign or three and four in the morning to take a heatmap. And you can see that the roads are over 20 and 30 and 40 degrees. Depending on the absence or presence of trees. That’s why the council here, is one of the few councils in Australia which is actually putting in more trees than it’s cutting down. And so, I hope to receive a, of a supportive hearing when I go to counsel about what’s happening on our streets to try and rein in what’s good and stop this, crew cutting of trees. I’ve also spoken to somebody who did a wonderful design in Victoria Park, which is a big park near Sydney University, and it drains millions, hundreds of millions of water to the coral by which is the most polluted part of Sydney Harbour. And they put in, some landscaping to keep water in the park so that the suspended solids can be, dropped. The water wouldn’t flow as fast. And now you’ve got some dense reeds growing there and it’s cooler. So I spoke to this person who was involved in the design and implementation of those stormwater works, and he said, people have gone on from council and other people and they the now thinking of getting in and add. A diesel powered engine to pump oxygen in the water, to take the to make it, take away algal blooms, when in fact all of the increased sedimentation in the wood is actually come from Sydney University, which is upstream, did some building works and poured hundreds of tons of sediment off the site into the public park below. This is a. Revered seat of learning. Building a thing, and you can just. So there’s no necessary virtue in universe. It’s quite the opposite. So there’s this constant tension between people who have some respect. For Earth. We want to nurture her. Keep her will. And others who who just don’t care.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:20:59] But, Michael, we come. Coming. We come back to, the economic model, and we talk about cheap commodities. But the problem with the so-called cheap commodities. And we could pick anyone, really, a clothing, food, building all of this sort of stuff. The environmental and health costs are never factored in. They’re always externalised and put onto the public register. Oh, well, if there’s a health problem, you’ll deal with it. If there’s an environmental problem, you’ll deal with it. The public will deal with it. Well, I will deal with it either in poor health or extreme costs to fix it. But it’s never it’s never factored in as a requirement to anything that is produced. Yeah. I mean, we did this program. I don’t know whether you know Ellen Savoury. You’ve heard the word out and name of Ellen Savoury. But Ellen says there should be a holistic context which sits over every decision that is made. And it’s nothing wrong with making money. There’s nothing wrong with that at all. But if the holistic context said over every decision was is this good for human health? Is this good for environmental health? If the answer to both those questions is yes, then go for.

Michael Mobbs [00:22:16] It. It seems that that’s a question that would be asked. But If you’re if you’re ausgrid. Your world is getting those power lines and the energy down them. If you’re Sydney Water, it’s maintaining your business. Sydney Water’s the in the top ten carbon polluters in New South Wales. It’s also one of the major contributors to the state government’s budget. It makes a fortune. And Sydney Water requires that, people use Their services. It’s very hard to disentangle yourself. Take storm water. In Sydney. You’re obliged. And it’s almost. In, in a scaffold to discharge your stormwater from your house to the street. If you are speaking in Adelaide with a really good a couple of hundred miles of water in the upstream states of Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria, still the water from the Murray-Darling. So when it gets to Adelaide, it’s too full of salt to use. In Adelaide, 47% of houses have rain tanks, and there’s a closer supportive relationship between councils and the health agency there to support rainwater use. And there’s a study of live in hundred schoolchildren. On town water and in Adelaide and 1100 schoolchildren on tank water, comparing their gut health. And although they found rats, skeletons and stuff in the gutters of the children having running water, their gut health was superior to those having ten water because chlorine contains four Troy held for Troy. Hello. Methane is one of which causes 2% of stomach cancers in America, so there’s a real support there because of water shortage for rain tanks travelling further across Australia to Perth. Where most of the water for Perth comes from underground aquifers. You directed not to discharge the stormwater from your house to the street, but to keep it on site with the goal of recharging the aquifers below the houses and buildings. So this the management of water is quite different, to Sydney. And it’s because the government agency has a financial and strategic interest. In putting that water into the aquifer. So there’s. What is this sort of biblical? Tourism in Sydney is a is not in Perth. It’s actually just a cultural and strategic lead. Different approach. And so I’ll tell you where I’ve come to him 74. I’ve been bumbling around trying to do something for my lovely youth. And I quote George, well, not George Monbiot. I think it was, a 19th century English poultices a lovely I love not man the list, but nature more so my love is is my prime motivator. So I looked at the things that you and I discussing in this conversation. I thought, what can I do that has most strategic potential to do good? And, I’m not being rude to you or your readers or listeners when I hold up my middle and other fingers, three fingers, and ask you to regard them as a bar graph of the three most polluting countries on Earth, the most polluting. The middle finger is China. The second most polluting of Earth is America. And then if you grow food waste as pollution as a country, it is the third most polluting country on earth, because in poor countries, most of the food spoils in the fields who can’t be used because they can’t get it to market or whatever, or store it in rich countries like the one in Europe. You and I are in. We throw away most of it, either in the fields or in transportation, or in the marketing of beautiful looking, same sized lemons or whatever it might be. So I’ve decided what time I’ve got left to try and end food waste this year in Chippendale. And so. The community seems to support it. We’ve got 16 different compost options in the streets. We’re composting 3 to 400 kilos of food waste a week, and. No, the stage where I think we can roll it out, we can get some major buy in from. From there, from householders, from unit dwellers and from office building owners or tenants. And so I’m trying to work out what is the most strategically significant contribution on my community and community can make. And so far, so good. And it gives me the energy to keep trying to do something that has strategic value.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:27:57] How does that look? I mean, I have seen when we met recently at the, at the food at the fair there at the Pocket City Farm. I did see one of the benches, but for those that haven’t. Explain how you’ve approached this eliminating food waste in Chippendale, which is an inner city suburb of Sydney, where you’ve lived for, for for what, 30, 40 years now? Malcolm.

Michael Mobbs [00:28:23] Yeah. So what happens?

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:28:26] How does that look? Have you approached.

Michael Mobbs [00:28:28] So the background was, I just started using off the shelf worm farms and different versions of compost in Chippendale. And, have a really good relationship with the cafe owners. Talk to them because there are two markets for food waste. One market is captured with little power to choose the service provider. That’s residential people across Australia. The other market can choose their service provider and that’s cafes, units and offices. I can say, well, I don’t like your service or the price, whatever may be important to them. I’m going to use somebody else. So I got a grant of to. Using worm farms and other things from the New South Wales API to trial ending cafe food waste in five cafes in Chippendale and five cafes in Bathurst. So we get some data comparing a city in a country in. And then the virus hit and then it was largely disrupted. But in the course of that, something I was trialling, a cool suit, really got me thinking about compost. Usually it’s Bolton blokes doing weird things behind trees with weird looking things out the back garden who compost. And I wanted to reframe it as something that anyone could do, no matter whether they were or were not interested in in food wise, which had style and elegance and which didn’t look like anything else. So of after 4 or 5 years of trialling different suits, I think I’ve come to something that I can go to market with. It’s a seat visually, it it sits in a garden bin, but it projects beyond the garden bed and inverts the view of the sitter. And then under the seat there are baskets holding food waste and other side. There are plants fed by nutrients leached from the composting baskets. It’s a childish delight to me, Ron, to see people sitting out cafes on some of the earlier prototypes of courses and their faces and jaws drop or lift the seat adjoining them and put in some food waste, or take out some compost. I said, well, this is a compost so it doesn’t smell. It chokes people so unaware that they’re sitting about food waste. And hopefully, I can end first food waste in Chippendale in the public domain and reduce the pollution. So just to put a figure of it, it depends, Ron. But taking the most conservative data, which is from Princeton University, they say that when you compost one kilo of food waste, that stops one and a half kilos of climate pollution. So if we if we’re doing 3 or 400 kilos a week, we’re, we’re stopping 5 or 600 kilos of climate pollution a week. If we can do that and we get greater use of the streets, we might have people that are more possessive and fond of their trees and their footpath gardens more protective of them. And their voices might also grow to protect the public domain. Because the public domain, the roads in Chippendale are 23% of the landmass in suburbs further out, which are less intensely developed. The between 27 to 33% of the landmass. So that’s a big part of our cities, which no one owns except the councils on trust for us. But it’s just a playground for gas and oil and energy and sewage and water for people to play with as they wish without regard to trees or amenity and so on. So it’s an exciting time for me and for a suburban and, people who want to do something real. I mentioned run going outside your house or unit, checking your food waste in this thing, walking away, and it doesn’t smell. I have yet to completely trial all the business dynamics, but I’m hoping that, I can create two part time jobs. For people who will maintain the compost seeds. If we can keep local money in local economies, we can have a much richer society. So when we put our garbage here, the least efficient transport is a garbage truck. It accelerates and stops every 20 or 30m. They get about 2 to 3km. To two a litre. So really inefficient. And. Hmhm. So if we can clone.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:33:46] Well, you know, you’d be you’d be, you’d be pleased to know also, Michael, that another mentor, hero and friend of mine is Helena Norberg Hodge, which, who champions local futures and the importance of local community. And I and I share that that passion. And I’ve seen your seats and not only well, you know how great to provide a public seat that grows plants and provides a compost which can only improve the soil when we take that compost and put it in the local soil. So it’s a win win win all around.

Michael Mobbs [00:34:23] It is. It increases tree canopy close the suburb increases more diversity for insects and bugs. And, I can’t see a downside. So we’ll see how we go run them. Giving it a go.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:34:43] But you’ve mentioned cooling and you mentioned this bundling of of wires, which I’ve not heard before, but I’ve often seen trees, pruned in a really, unsympathetic fashion. And you’ve mentioned also cooling because we hear a lot about global warming. And, you know, there’s a new one. What on earth can I do about global warming? You know, I could reduce my carbon footprint, but we could actually cool our streets. You’ve mentioned trees is one thing, but you’ve you’ve approached this cooling of cities by cooling streets from another perspective, too, haven’t you?

Michael Mobbs [00:35:22] Yeah. The, the truth about water in Sydney is that more water falls as rain. And is wasted, then is imported as town water. So we actually don’t need Sydney water? Yes. And the water that’s wasted and goes to the, the most polluted part of Sydney Harbour and Blackwater Bay gets there because there’s not enough. Water kit. So what we did here about, 15 years ago, we had a for I, I, call we called a food for the future fair. And on that day we divided up. I think there are about ten working people who had never held a shovel. Held a shovel, and the council gave us 2 or 300 plants, some chosen to go on the shady side of streets. Others chosen to go on the sunny side. And we planted, those trees and plants. But we also put in what I call leaky drains, which sounds unattractive, but the space between the edge of a of a footpath and the gutter that’s occupied by the verge by a footpath garden, is is a ripe place to change the way we deal with water and vermin. Hate where the householders agreed. We excavated and exposed the drain. Carrying the water from the roof, the drain to the street. We dug up the drain and replaced it with a pipe into which we had drilled holes. Or, you can buy agricultural drainage, which has got lots of holes in it and is covered with fabric, so it leaks. So now, for a one off cost of buying that agricultural drainage pipe in 10 or 15 years ago, we’re keeping 4,000,000l of water each year and our streets so that the water that falls on those houses irrigates the verges. And so they’re they’ve gone from being compacted, clay to, supporting all sorts of edible and decorative plants. And that happens every year for one of cost. So we’ve also done some similar things in the newly, renovated park here. We’ve put in, leaky drains on edges of the park. So when the water runs off the grass of the paths, it goes into the grate. But the grate has no bass. It’s just go to an agricultural drainage pipe and the water from the park goes into it. I’m looking at you as I say, this one. I just think it’s amazing that parks are designed to waste rainwater. When that water can be kept freely to irrigate the grass, the garden beds and the trees. And so. I don’t know. You know I just, I don’t understand. So we now have fruit trees and edible plants in that garden. We’ve got about a thousand fruit trees, herbs and plants and a footpath. Gardens most of them. for in the in that way naturally without. Turn water. And we have to do that because it’s tough. Plus, you can’t get enough houses to to irrigate some of the plants. So about 80% of water falls gently and the other 20% comes in a rush. So if we’re getting, say, 60% of the rainwater falls to irrigate the trees, we’re keeping millions of water all through the streets of Toronto. And that’s why we’ve got an really good tree growth here. And that’s why I have to have a little chat to try and pull back. The reinvigorated Ausgrid. Marauders?

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:39:51] Yes, I must say, having walked through Chippendale on occasion, I cannot, I must say it’s so obvious that there is so much tree growth and healthy tree growth coming out of the footpath. Coming, you know, like, it’s just incredible. I would observe that. I have observed that my wife and I have noted it on occasion. Another aspect of cooling, though, and I’m guessing all our roads are black and black absorbs heat. There’s another opportunity. Yeah.

Michael Mobbs [00:40:23] I didn’t mention that. There’s so many ways we can, as cities, imagine the thought processes. Australia’s a really hot country. Black holes, absorbs and rerated, radiates heat from the sun. Not if you wanted to heat up Sydney as it is 10 to 12 degrees above what it needs to be. It is black to. And to their credit, Sydney Council. No use. What? Concrete. That’s got a lot of, recycled materials in it. And, in the street here, they train to agricultural drainage park, buried at the intersection of the sloping concrete. So the water goes down to feed the plants. But if you. If you could just go to one of the satellite maps you can get of your suburb. People listening this would be shocked at the large amounts of black tar which hold the heat and rain right radiated at night to heat it up, and that drives up bacon bills and It’s we’ve got a lot of work to do to cool our cities down. Run. And I’m hoping the discussion such as this might be heard by people who place to bring about change in road design, water design and so on. So it’s good to talk to you. Thank you.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:41:55] Yeah. Now, listen, can I just come back to one thing because it is intriguing to me. You know, you disconnected in 1996 when you were doing your renovation from the water and sewerage and you said, yes, you put in two tanks. So tell me what happens with the sewerage? I mean, that must be a big one and and a challenging one.

Michael Mobbs [00:42:14] So I’m holding up my fingers to make, a circle. Imagine this is a picture of the amount of water we use in our houses. We humans excrete 4 to 8 times a day. So half of our water use is used to flush the toilet and wash clothes, which are non drinking quality functions. So in this house, the sewage is recycled, cleaned up, recycled to flush the toilet, wash the clothes. And that’s been going on for 28 years. No sewage or stormwater. This is for terrace House garden in 2080. So I’ve kept almost 3,000,000l in the garden in an area the size of my dining room table. And no one has died drinking rainwater. But the. The quantitative impact, the physical impact of meeting half the need by recycling the sewage is the water use is halved so that the water from the rain tank was twice as long, and so the shower, kitchen and basin water is rainwater and have been tested to clean all the data in the book about the health sustainable health. So what happens here is the sewage from the flush toilets, the sinks and the closed washing machine goes to a tank which has at the end of it, it’s about 2820 500l long skinny tank. When the ties first to the close washing machine goes, it goes through two agricultural filters about the size of two big skis. It is filled with, fun, you know, like like swimming pool, sand fun, swimming pool, filter sand. It takes the colour and the odour out of it, and then there’s some UV lamp to sterilise it. So the water coming back to flush the toilet, wash the clothes. If you go to a restaurant they’ve got a fish tank. The fish is swimming in their own excreta. There’s a little fish, usually about the size of your thumb or your big finger. And that’s using ultraviolet light to disinfect the water so the fish don’t die from their own excreta. So it’s just, it’s how big ten water systems were. I’ve just got a a small system for my house. And then, every three, 4 or 5 years, I replace that filter in the filters with new filter, and I am continuing with it. And the testing the data on that is in the books. But I think the major difficulty is not dealing with it. I’m just doing in the city what farmers do every day in the country, more or less. But I think the major difficulty is not the technical difficulty. It’s dealing with the approval process, because the planners and the environmental people in universities are not trained to deal with innovation with water and sewage. They’re they’re really controlled by the health and other people in the state. So you’d have a greater sense of, success or prospects of it in South Australia because they’re really running out of water. It’s even worse in. In Perth, where the water rainfall has halved in the last ten years, and if you went to Singapore, you’d get a very supportive hearing because in Singapore they have no river system. They have to get all by all. The water from the adjoining mainland of Malaysia and Malaysia says to Singapore, when it feels like, look, we think the water’s too cheap, we’re going to put it up. Singapore has got tired of being financially screwed and are now recycling this sewage and selling it as drink water. And the Prime Minister was in the promotional video and he’s got tennis shorts on top playing tennis with a bottle of new water, which is recycled sewage. So they’re actively selling and promoting recycled sewage. So how we see the environment depends where we are and and the water or other constraints in the house or suburb of city.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:46:43] I mean, I have heard it said in, in London that the water you drink has been drunk seven times before you, but I think if we were taking an even more holistic view, the water that we’re all drinking has been drunk for hundreds of thousands of years. In one way or another. It’s right, you know. So seven times is probably really fresh.

Michael Mobbs [00:47:05] That’s right, that’s right.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:47:07] Yeah. What about energy’s another one that’s, that’s obviously a big one. And, you know, compared to where you were in 1996, where we all are now and our not all but many people are now energy wise. How does that all stack up in your house?

Michael Mobbs [00:47:26] We’re not. It’s wonderful, to be alive now, there’s so much, wonderful stuff happening to give you a financial, expression of the. When I put in the solar panels along with the Recycle Susan water in 1996, my solar panels cost me $26,000. Of the $48,000, which was the total budget of going off grid. Today, the same power in solar panels would cost about 900 to $1100. What a dramatic drop in price, but more than the drop in price is the increase in power. So the same footprint taken up of those panels now creates 2 to 3 times the amount of power that those panels create. It’s a really good turn to put in solar in the market. You can see for solar panels is just exploding. So what I, I haven’t paid any energy water bills here for a decade. So the sun gives the house all the light needs, provide the solar panels, not got batteries. But it’s also a time for spivs and, naughty solar companies. There’s a about a 20 to 30% failure rate in the solar, industry in the residential sector. People. Not getting good results. And now you can go to websites and you can get reliable companies that, express their. But, you need to view residential energy. Solar energy is very different to commercial solar farms built to make money. Have. What I would urge for the residential market. They pay according to the promised amount of power production. The hefty because they are spending money to build that solar farm to sell it. If they can only sell 40% of the projected amount of power, then they’re not going to make money. So if you’re going to get it, if you’re a household, you’re going to get. So don’t get the cheapest look for somebody who’s been around for 5 or 10 years and is likely to be around when you call in. The warranty is different for you as a household to do to do that. But, I’m holding up my hands above each other. At an angle. Not only do you get the solar panels when you put them on, you also get cooling by the shade cast by the panels so there’s less heat on your roof so you get less heat stress on the roof. When you put that on. Is that. Does that answer your question? Yeah.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:50:22] No. That’s good. That doesn’t. So my question look, Michael, you’ve been a great source of inspiration for so for so long and to hear you talk about it and some of the bigger issues, it’s, I mean, most people are I think a lot of people are switched on to this idea. Before we finish, I just wanted to take a step back because, from your role as a sustainable house holder in the inner city. In the city, and and a campaigner, because we’re all on a bit of a health journey through life in this modern world. What do you think the biggest challenges for us as individuals on that journey?

Michael Mobbs [00:51:03] If we can eat good food, usually available only from farmers directly, not through chain stores, if we’re going to eat healthy food, we get three chances a day to look after our bodies and mentally. And so, other. Dimensions of our body, but also to support the people who grow in it. You can there’s plenty of studies of the nutritional value of organic and home grown or farm grown food. So the short answer is buying locally grown foods from local farmers with whom you can have a more trust worthy relationship. Try to cook it and use it in a healthy way. I love to cook and I’ve become quite as I religious about my air fryer and my induction cooktop. My air fryer. I use no more than a tablespoon of oil in that it’s sufficient at cooking. It’s a healthier way to to make chips or scrambled eggs or things. So you get three chances a day to eat healthy food. And if you’re buying a food train. But from farmers who grow the healthiest food. Does that answer your question?

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:52:26] That does answer my question, Michael. And thank you for not only joining us today and sharing your knowledge and wisdom, but for being such an incredibly inspiring member of of our community. Thank you so much.

Michael Mobbs [00:52:39] Lovely to talk to you and have a discussion of interest to your listeners. And I wish you well. We’ll see you later.

Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:52:46] Thank you. Well, as I say, it’s inspiring and to know that it can be done in the in an inner city suburb of Sydney. And, and I’ve walked through that suburb and Michael’s impact on it is, well it’s there for everybody to see and he’s un he’s not finished yet. I mean, eliminating food waste, cooling our cities. I mean, these things are all achievable. You know, we talk about, the global warming. But there is stuff that we can do in our own neighbourhoods and in our own communities, and and I thought, and I’ve always found Michael’s story to be incredibly inspiring. I hope you do, too. I hope this finds you well, until next time. This is doctor Ron Erlich. Hey. Well, this podcast provides general information and discussion about medicine, health, and related subjects. The content is not intended and should not be construed as medical advice, or as a substitute for care by a qualified medical practitioner. If you or any other person has a medical concern, he or she should consult with an appropriately qualified medical practitioner. Guests who speak in this podcast express their own opinions, experiences and conclusions.