Soberness, Recovery & the Power of Choice | Cat Greenleaf

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catgreenleaf.com

soberness.com – The official site for her podcast featuring episodes, info, and links.

📱 𝗢𝗳𝗳𝗶𝗰𝗶𝗮𝗹 𝗦𝗼𝗰𝗶𝗮𝗹 𝗠𝗲𝗱𝗶𝗮 / 𝗖𝗵𝗮𝗻𝗻𝗲𝗹𝘀

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Timestamp:

00:00–02:00 Introduction & scope of addiction

02:06–05:00 Phone addiction & modern compulsions

06:00–10:50 Cat’s personal addiction & sobriety story

11:00–18:00 AA, 12 steps & alternative recovery paths

20:30–27:45 Prison recovery work & trauma

33:00–38:00 Celebrity, fame & attention addiction

40:00–47:30 Technology, kids & parenting challenges

49:00–50:30 Practical recovery mindset shifts

Soberness, Recovery & the Power of Choice | Cat Greenleaf

Dr Ron Ehrlich (00:00)

Hello and welcome to Unstress Health. My name is Dr Ron Ehrlich. Well, we’re doing a few programs in these next couple of weeks on addiction, looking at it from various perspectives and one could argue addiction, well, it’s not an argument, it’s a fact. Addiction takes many forms in our modern world beyond the stereotypical substance abuse idea of addiction. But my guest today has certainly dealt with some of those issues firsthand and shares them with us in a very open and honest way. It’s wonderful energy. 

I’m really pleased to have my guest today is Cat Greenleaf and she is a seasoned media personality turned advocate for genuine recovery and sobriety. As the host of Sovereigness podcast, she offers fresh, unscripted conversations with celebrities and everyday people about what broke them, what saved them and what still challenges them today.

Now in her own journey over many years of, over last 10 years of sobriety and her many years of addiction and through her work with formerly incarcerated and actually with incarcerated individuals, Cat has created a bridge between wellness, resilience and the often hidden realities of addiction and recovery. Now in our conversation, we explore her insights and practical wisdom, which for all of us are relevant as we face challenges of our modern world.

And how many opportunities we have in our modern world for becoming addicted. Not just as I said to the stereotypical substance abuse, things like alcohol or tobacco or cocaine, but as we look around us every day or as we examine our own life, addiction takes many forms as we navigate the stress of our modern world health and well-being. I hope you enjoy this conversation I had with Kat Greenleaf. Welcome to the show Cat. 

Cat Geernleaf (02:06)

Thank you so much for having me.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (02:08)

Now Cat, you’ve got this podcast Soberness and the whole story of addiction actually I believe is a much bigger problem than many people even realize themselves. But from your perspective and hosting this Soberness podcast and working within the recovery space, how big a problem, how significant a problem is addiction, in general and substance abuse in particular in society, both visible and

Cat Geernleaf (02:39)

Well, let me ask you this. Do you have a phone?

Dr Ron Ehrlich (02:40)

A phone, yes I know where you’re going on this. And guilty as charged. Guilty as charged. Yeah. It’s ubiquitous isn’t it?

Cat Geernleaf (02:50)

Thank you everybody. And when I started the show, I assumed we’d be talking to, know, ex-drunks like myself. But in fact, there are besides the many different addictions, whether it’s love, sex, money, fame, power, whatever you could be addicted to. The phone is no joke. And I am not a scientist, unfortunately. I’m not a behaviorist. But I do know that the world is headed for a real reckoning with the phones. And everybody is going to need not is going to everybody needs to face their own addiction with that. It’s really real. is doing all the things that substances promised and more, you know, it takes you away from reality. It lets you go somewhere else. It lets you shield yourself. You don’t have to have awkward conversations or small talk because you can just be on your own. And I’m dealing with my kids right now and myself and my husband, everybody I know, but

As an adult and as a recovering addict, I’ve learned to put my phone down. I’m seeing a lot of people don’t think it’s an addiction, so they don’t think they have to. But Lord have mercy, I am seeing this like the next big…

Dr Ron Ehrlich (04:07)

Yeah. look, boy, we’ve come in at the point where I thought we’d get to a little bit later on, but no, no. Good, good, good, because it is literally the elephant in everyone’s room. know, is literally the elephant in everyone’s room. How old are your kids?

Cat Geernleaf (04:22)

13 and 16.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (04:23)

Wow, what a vulnerable age to be at and this is a generation. I I think we can both. I definitely am of that generation where I can remember life before there was phone.

Cat Geernleaf (04:40)

Yeah, remember, it was really simple. You know, we, we somehow made it work, right?

Dr Ron Ehrlich (04:47)

Yeah, yeah. was, mean, and kids today, my God, you didn’t have a phone. What did you do? I mean, how did you exist? What was the point of.

Cat Geernleaf (05:00)

100 % and listen, we suffered through all the awkward moments, you know, weird and what do you come up with to talk about and how do I handle this? And we lived, you know, I’m not saying it was all roses, but we lived and I’m very disquieted by what’s going on with addiction. But if you want to talk about the more classic addictions, the more popular addictions, like, you know, alcohol and drugs. think everybody loves to check out. It’s no secret that the places where non-alcoholic beverages sell the best are markets where marijuana is legal in the States. People like to be messed up.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (05:47)

Well, I think. That’s been part of the human experience probably forever. You know, when we picked up a plant somewhere and ate it and thought, wow, I’m out of my head here. I’m in a different place, and it’s rather nice. You know, it offers a different perspective. I don’t want to judge, but there is no judgment because that’s part of the human experience, isn’t it?

Cat Geernleaf (06:08)

I love being wasted. I do. I love it. Love, I mean, it’s been such a long time, but I love the moment where that relief starts to hit. That’s really what it is, right? It’s Relief from however you’re feeling that you’d rather not feel. And so I, I do miss that, that relief. And I think it’s delicious, and I understand why people chase it. There’s also, of course, different reasons that people become addicted. I believe I was born an alcoholic. I think it is at a cellular level was always meant to happen. Not meant to, but it was just going to. That’s my body needed it, wanted it. Some people start drinking because of a great tragedy. Some people start using pills after they’ve had surgery. I mean, there are all sorts of things that kick off an addiction. And I have come to believe that addiction is both a disease and a choice. Not everybody has the strength.

Make the choice to get sober. So I am not trying to be hard on my brothers and sisters who are trying to get sober. But I do know that once your muscles are strong enough to make the decision to stop drinking or using, you are the only person that can do that. You are the only person that can summon the cure. Nobody can get sober for you. Nobody can make that choice for you.

And so it’s such an interesting thing, you don’t ask to have it, but only you can make the decision to conquer it.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (07:47)

Yeah, look, you meant I think it might be interesting just to share. I’m sure you don’t mind because you’ve got a podcast on this topic, but to share your own story, sort of laying a groundwork here, because I think we have identified and I think actually if anybody with any, everybody would agree addiction is far more ubiquitous than we give the credit for. But tell us about your own story.

Cat Geernleaf (08:12)

Okay, so here’s the story. So, as a very young kid, I was spiritually connected. I had a grandmother who passed away, and I very quickly started receiving messages from my grandmother. And I lived in a household at a time where that was cuckoo. And so it made me a little cuckoo to be living between worlds. And I think that young kids, especially

are given to living between worlds because their minds have not been clouded with the cages that keep us separate from different planes. So it was a weird way to kind of be on this planet. And I saw that it wasn’t jiving well with my family and my contemporaries. And I think I started drinking to push that separation away, meaning

If I drank away my spiritual side, I didn’t have to feel so isolated. I didn’t have to feel so different from everybody. I wish I had found a different way to cope, but I didn’t. And like I said, I think I was a just an alcoholic. I was always going to be one. And this is because I like it. I like to drink. And so this was the thing that had me feeling uncomfortable spiritual life, and so I started drinking to quell the discomfort.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (09:43)

Wow, wow, mean, yeah, no, no, go on.

Cat Geernleaf (09:50)

Well, you want the story, was that’s where it started, and it went on and on. And even though I knew from the very beginning that I was bad at it, I kept going and kept going. And it’s a wonder that so many good things happened in my life. And, you know, got married and have a career and family. But in fact, this was going to have to stop. So when my youngest was around one, I decided. I decided that.

I had to make a change, and I put that prayer out into the universe, looking for some help, and went to a wedding, sat next to somebody who was kind of punk rock and had tattoo,s and you know, just my kind of person, and ordered a seltzer. And I thought, well, I know what that means. And so I just leaned in and asked him about recovery. And that was my last drink, is what I had at that wedding.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (10:49)

Wow, wow. And recovery, mean, backing up a little bit because I think the, you know, people enjoy having a drink. A lot of people do enjoy having a drink, but when it becomes that line between enjoying having a drink and being an alcoholic, how do we define that transition?

Cat Geernleaf (11:08)

But think for some people, it’s when they feel they need it, they must have it, they need it. For me, I knew because I drank to black out every time.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (11:21)

I mean as a 12-year-old I can only imagine, gee, know, it didn’t take much but pretty soon you must build a tolerance.

Cat Geernleaf (11:39)

Yeah, yeah, yes. And because I’m such an extreme person, everything I do, I do to extremes. I didn’t want a polite glass of wine. I wanted a straight whiskey. I didn’t want a beer. I wanted a 40 ounce. You know, my my the team that I work with called me the sober Cobra. And the reason why they call me that is because I used to drink tin Cobra, which is a malt liquor, huge that is commonly kept with a paper bag around it. You know, I mean, that’s the kind of classy woman I was there. And so it didn’t take so much to get me drunk, but I didn’t care because I would just go and go and then wake up somewhere I didn’t recognize. 

Dr Ron Ehrlich (12:22)

Wow, wow. 

Cat Geernleaf (12:23)

And that happened a lot.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (12:24)

And people, recovery, mean the first thing people think of with recovery is AA, the 12-step program. What worked for you? How was that? Tell us about that process.

Cat Geernleaf (12:33)

That’s a great question. So I was so naive about sobriety that I thought you had to do the 12 steps to be sober. So I had a very dear friend, she’s still one of my best friends, those are sisters who is in many recovery A’s, all the A’s you can be in. And I said it’s time. And so she very gently and lovingly took me through the 12 steps, which by the way, I think it’s a beautiful process and everybody would benefit from the 12 steps, whether or not you’re classically addicted to something.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (13:11)

You’ve got that 12 step 101 you know like a lot of people like myself heard about it but I it’d be really interesting to what is the 12 step program.

Cat Geernleaf (13:18)

Right. Okay. So it was started 80 years ago, maybe, ish by a guy called Bill Wilson. And Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob are two names you hear a lot. Now I need to say, I’m not a really good AA, meaning I’m now after 10 years of sobering up by myself, I’m now, I do go to recovery groups, but I’m pretty spaced out. And it’s the kind of thing where it’s like, a required family dinner. Like I know these people now in the meeting. So I want to show up every day and see what’s going on with them. But I’m not really very orthodox. So I’ll tell you what I know about it. And I’ll tell you my take on it. So what I know of it is the first step is admitting you’re powerless over alcohol. Now, right off the bat, I don’t like that. I don’t think I’m powerless. So nothing. I’m not there’s I’m not powerless any at anywhere in my life. I am powerless over the second drink. I’m not powerless over the first drink. The first drink, I have the power to say I’m not going to do that. But once I have that first drink, then I’m off to the races, right? So, but in classic AA, you’re powerless over alcohol. I think you become, you become willing to have a power greater than yourself, take over, you do a lot of moral inventory, you make amends. So for me, the amends is the most important step, the ninth step.

Because part of my alcoholism, and I think many have people’s alcoholism, is they carry so much guilt and shame. And I certainly did. So having the opportunity to go to people and say, I am really sorry, and make amends for the messes I’ve made, that felt very, very valuable to me. And you move through that, and then you basically promise to keep helping other alcoholics, and you keep it quiet, you protect anonymity, because other people may not want to be out there talking their sobriety. And that’s one thing. And another thing is if a public facing person talks about their recovery in AA and then falls off the wagon, it can open up a lot of criticism to the program. So those two reasons why it stays anonymous. Now these days, with social media, with podcasts, it’s a lot less anonymous, to which I say fanfuckingtastic, because the more people that know about the different ways to get sober, the better.

A lot of died in the world AA people will say that that’s crazy and I’m a heretic, but hey, that’s the way it is these days. Everything is out there. You don’t have to tell anyone you’re sober if you don’t want to. I choose to because it helped me when other people told me they were sober and how they got there. the way that, yeah, in AA you count days, there are birthdays, like people like to have sponsors, too much involvement for me.

I’m a little bit more of a loner, not great. Maybe you will say I isolate. Well, I do. I like being by myself. I don’t love being part of a group and I certainly don’t want to be responsible for anybody else’s sobriety. So I’m not a sponsor and I don’t have sponsors. That said, the other thing I don’t do is AA is such a beautiful and strong organization. And for people who follow it to the letter, amen. For people who follow half of it, amen also. For me, the orthodoxy of anything gets in the way of the spirit of a faith. So if you’ve been sober five years and you have a glass of wine, I am not going to request that you go back to day zero. I don’t think that’s necessary. You have five sober years, you had a glass of wine, or you went out on a bender one night and tomorrow you’re sober again, fine by me, you’re still five years sober. Not everybody looks at it that way. well, you know, it’s really to each their own.

There are 8.8 billion humans on this planet, which tells me there are 8.8 billion ways to go about a thing. And one of the groups that I’m very involved in is called Perry Street. It’s my home group. We have a saying, there’s no wrong way to get sober. And I really believe that there is no wrong way to do this. One of the understable taglines of my show is whatever works. And I truly mean that. If AA works, great. If not AA works,

If your Achilles heel is alcohol, which you can handle marijuana, then have marijuana. If marijuana is your Achilles heel, but you can have a drink, have a drink. I’m not somebody who says you have to be completely sober or else you’re not really a sober person. I find that a little elitist, frankly.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (18:05)

So before we leave AA, and it’s interesting you use the word amen, is there a religious component at all to AA? Is there any religious component there?

Cat Geernleaf (18:14)

Yes. So the higher power is a big part of it. A god of my understanding. There are certain words, sentences, phrases that people use again and again in the AA. Like church, know, like any… the big book is the… So AA is based around the big book, so the big blue book. And that’s the Bible. So it is… It very much mirrors a religious organization. And this thing about the higher power is the real deal. Everyone in there…

Not ever. Many people credit their higher power for this is where they found God. It’s God that keeps them sober. And I am a lifelong faithful. I’ve always been. I’ve only known known two things in my life. One of them are that I believe in God. However, God isn’t my sobriety. God helps my sobriety. But people say, I didn’t get myself sober. God did it. It’s not how I look at it. I don’t.

God doesn’t need all that responsibility. God’s got plenty of other things to do. He doesn’t need to be responsible for you and your sobriety. That’s yours. Everything we do is a partnership with God. That’s how I look at it. So for some people, for agnostics, that can be very challenging. You know, that can be a harder thing because one of the steps is became willing to have a power greater than myself take over the reins basically. And if you don’t believe in God, then what? You know, then what? So yes, it is a component.

There’s got to be, for the people who don’t believe in God, it still can be helpful, I assume. You’ve got to just take that step out.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (19:51)

I mean it could just come down to semantics really doesn’t it because if you as an individual don’t believe there is a higher power on earth, whatever you call it, whether it’s God or quantum physics or the universe, to suggest that there isn’t a higher power than you is kind of an odd position to take anyway.

Cat Geernleaf (20:14)

100 percent I agree. That leaves, it’s not just in a air sobriety, that leaves a lot of people, what do I do without, you the world says I need God.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (20:24)

But it wasn’t for you. It wasn’t for you, AA. What was? Well… Well, you mentioned Perry Strickland.

Cat Geernleaf (20:32)

Well, Perry, so here’s what happened. So was on my own for 10 years. Um, it wasn’t for me because I was busy with young children and a career. And I just didn’t, I don’t know. The truth is it never occurred to me. Not interested. Uh, I didn’t drink and I didn’t drink and that was it. And I just shut it off. Now, another thing I think is a bit snobby. People who are very serious about it will say, well, you were a dry drunk, meaning a dry drunk. So a dry drunk is you just stopped drinking, but you don’t.

Deal with the underlying causes of why you drink or you don’t deal with them in AA. It is so hard to stop drinking. It is so hard to give up the thing you love the most that there shouldn’t be any judgment on whether or not you do it through AA. And by the way, how’s about alcoholics? Why do we have to work harder on ourselves and everybody else? Otherwise we’re called as the right job. How about I just gave up the thing I love the most. Isn’t that enough?

You’re a drug junkie. don’t now I have to do the deep dive, but you don’t have to do a deep dive. How come because I was an alcoholic, I have to work harder on being a better person than somebody else who just rolls through life. Never been in being an over drinker, you know, so I find that a bit unfortunate. That being said, after 10 years of white knuckling it, being on my own, I met a stranger who in passing mentioned how much I might like AA because I love a good story and you know, clearly I enjoy talking to people and so I went on line and they had me at hello. 

The second one person started telling their crazy ass story and everybody else clapped and like this in my place, you know, anywhere they’d be saying, I just, you know, I had seven years sober and then I went out last week and I went crazy and I robbed it convenience store and everyone’s clapping, you know, I’m like, this is amazing. So I do think it is a very supportive place. And it’s since has since opened up my life in so many ways. A, I started doing the show and started talking about it. I never talked about it before. I just decided I’m not going to drink and that is it. But sooner or later, we can’t outrun ourselves. Right. So I am so glad that I got the opportunity.

Through even just listening to other people talking at AA to really start digging down for myself. So that was one thing it opened up is my own self-reflection. The second thing it opened up is doing the show. And the third thing AA opened up for me is I bring recovery meetings into prisons. And that is my heart’s work. I love it the most. There is so much crazy stuff that can happen while you’re under the influence.

And sometimes that lands you in prison. And I believe that there but for the grace of God, so I and so I’m able to bring whatever I’ve learned or even just my ear or my heart into the prison to be with these people after they’ve suffered the worst of the worst things. They’ve taken lives. They’ve well, it’s a taking lives part. That’s pretty much the worst. And and that has happened in some very big ways.

To the people that I work with in prison. And I’m just so honored to be able to sit with them during these dark hours and try to help them put their addiction into context. Anyway, I’m not quite sure yet what my role really should be in prison, but I am about to go back to school to study Forensic Mental Health Counseling because I want to be able to serve these people more than I have you do? 

Dr Ron Ehrlich (24:21)

How long have you been doing that and how does that manifest itself? Tell us what that is going into prison or?

Yeah, yeah, no, no, they’re going into prison and dealing with people that are incarcerated.

Cat Geernleaf (24:33)

Okay, so on my 10 year sober anniversary, I started calling a maximum security prison here locally in New York where I live. And I called and I called and I called and I called and I called and and I finally got somebody to listen to me when I said I’d like to start bringing AA meetings. And I guess they haven’t had AA meetings since COVID or in a real way, a really robust way.

So I didn’t have much going on at the time and I had a lot of time to offer. So I said I wanted to come and I wanted to bring it. And anyway, I went through the whole vetting process and, finally was allowed in. So once a week I drive up, it’s about two hours away and I have women and they are in a maximum security situation. And in the beginning I was keeping it very rigid to AA guidelines, but it wasn’t really working for them because so it had to be about something else than counting days. And that wasn’t where these women are. know, they’ve many of them have killed close relatives or taken the lives of strangers. And what that’s got to do to a person sort of surpasses like getting your first day chipped. You know, there’s just like a lot of it’s a lot.

And I wasn’t about to sit there and say, look, ladies, I’m sober. You can be too. You know, that’s, I didn’t feel like the right vibe. But what I found they wanted was, you know, for the hour that I was there, they wanted relief, right? These are people who seek relief. They’re addicts like I am. relief, they want relief. Can you imagine? A horrible thing has transpired, right? You’re taking a life.

And now you are stuck in your skin. And there you are. And you’re a person who’s predisposed to wanting to get out of your skin. A double nightmare. So what I started doing was trying to bring an hour of relief. We would go down memory lane. We talked about our lives at their best moments. We talked about our favorite places. We started to do guided meditation, which is was sort of the outer limits of what I could even think to do, which is why I’m now going to school because I’m not for addiction specifically, more for mental health altogether. And the reason why not mental, why not addiction specifically is because I’ve given so much of my life to addiction. You know, I drank for 30 years. So I’m not that interested in it anymore. To me, it’s a thief. It’s been a thief. It’s taken so much. Many alcoholics will say of themselves, I’m a grateful recovering alcoholic. And if I didn’t, I, all this hadn’t happened, I wouldn’t be where I am now. And I think, yeah, I might be a lot farther along than I am. I may not have all this guilt and shame like I have now, you know, I don’t, I don’t love it. I don’t love.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (27:45)

How big of a group are you dealing with or is it one on one?

Cat Geernleaf (27:45)

No, it’s not one on one. It’s about, it can go anywhere from, you know, five on the small day to 25 on the larger day. It just depends on what’s going on in the prison at the time. You know, sometimes there are lockdowns. We had a big strike earlier in the year. That was really hard. was many months apart. I really miss them when I’m out there.

Promotional (28:14)

Dr Ron Ehrlich (29:21)

And I mean, gee, I can only imagine because we’ve done lots of, well, some programs on trauma and they talk psychologically talking about when you experience trauma, it’s stuck in one part of your head and the thought just goes round and round and round and you can’t release it. And to be in prison, that is actually a physical manifestation of being stuck in one place, just going round and round and round. The challenges must be incredible and the trauma that they must also be quite incredible.

Cat Geernleaf (29:53)

I can’t even really imagine. Again, like I said, which is why I’m going to school because I’d like to figure out how to help people out of that cycle. mean, listen, just as a person who has every manner of escape available to me, I know how challenging it is to rid myself of invasive thought loops. And so imagine if…you’re running from the worst possible thing that could have happened. And you’re running from it in your head. It’s enough to drive a person nuts.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (30:33)

And what portion of people who are incarcerated have a story where a substance abuse was a driver or a part of the story?

Cat Geernleaf (30:42)

But oh, okay. So there’s got to be some, actual data on this. I would venture 1580. You know what? I don’t really know. I don’t really know, but, but.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (30:57)

But your impression, your impression.

Cat Geernleaf (30:58)

Sure, a lot, a lot, a lot. And mental illness also. mean, a lot of perpetrators are also victims of whether it’s their own mental illness or their own abuse. I’m not saying that there aren’t people out there who’ve done terrible things wantonly that exists, but I just have come into contact with so many people who were abused mentally, physically, sexually.

People who abuse substances because they’re addicts, because it’s a disease. So all of these different factors, all of this context exists as well. And then somebody lives in prison and maybe for the rest of their lives. But what drives me to want to serve that population is they still exist. They still exist on this planet. And I don’t believe that God keeps us on a planet if he just wants us to suffer every minute, or she or whatever every minute of it. No, I don’t believe 11 God wants us to suffer all the time. And my God is 11 God. And so I guess I’m sort of starting to really hear my own calling as somebody that wants to help people not suffer in the total chamber of their mind.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (32:17)

It’s interesting because you started this conversation with the story of you as a 12 year old communicating with your grandmother and that was unacceptable or difficult in the household that you were in and alcohol was a way of taking you out of that space or disengaging. I mean that is the drive. I mean we think about stress in our modern world and we think about abuse in our modern world, we think about triggers in our modern world. I mean gee whiz, there’s a lot of reasons for trying to get out of your head.

Cat Geernleaf (33:03)

Yeah, who does want to get out of their head, right? mean, our heads are the scariest and most wonderful places to be.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (33:05)

Yeah. Yeah. So, so in your stories, in your podcast, tell us a little bit about some of the, you know, situations. I mean, you’re not talking to the same person every week or the same story every week. Everyone’s got a story.

Cat Geernleaf (33:20)

Yeah, well, everyone’s got a story. And then my podcast is celebrities. So my life as a journalist is as a celebrity talk show host for 10 years. So I took my skills and transferred them to this. It’s really weird getting sober while famous. There’s a lot of extra pressure there because it’s in public. And or it’s so in private because you’re so ashamed and people are afraid of losing their careers. So the conversations talk a lot about that and how fame itself is a drug. It’s a very heady thing to be famous. These folks, just like I think that incarcerated people are real survivors, I also think famous people are real survivors because.

I mean, now I guess everybody has their whole life splashed across media. So it’s different. But the things people I’ve been talking to are not influencers. They’re old famous. They’re old. They’re older and they’ve had real lives and they had to get sober when it wasn’t trendy and it wasn’t on Instagram and all of that. So the conversations that we have are very interesting depending on the person’s background. I’ll just try to think of a couple recent ones. Well, so there’s the actor Tim Bailey. He’s one of our most popular, he’s our first guest and he’s one of our most popular. 

He has been sober almost 40 years. He’s got a very sort of clean cut together persona. And he was incredibly vulnerable and honest when he talks about his blackout drinking and what it looked and felt like. And I think it’s really helpful to people who admire these folks for their work in the arts or whatever made them famous. And to see that their heroes, their idols also deal with the same kind of stuff. There’s a real healing element there that I’ve noticed. We also had John Lennon. So John Lennon is a big broadcaster here who was let go and soon asleep on CNN after 17 years or something. And so he’s getting sober from corporate media and, and his recovery is doing his own show on YouTube. And it’s been a while to hear how people on the love him side and the does not love him side have been commenting about the way he’s come forward with how he feels about you know, mainstream media. And so that was hit recovery for him. I’ve had other people on who are sex and love addicts. And that’s always a tough one, because nobody, people don’t believe that sex addicts are really sex addicts. think they’re dispersed. And that’s not true. We addicts can get addicted to anything sex addiction is real. And people really suffer. But the audience didn’t seem to feel that they felt like it was an excuse. And that’s been really interesting.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (36:43)

It’s interesting that you’ve you’ve focused on celebrities at one end and incarcerated people at the other end. But but but what I was going to say was I can imagine this is I just have to imagine because I’m not a celebrity. And when I walk out of my house, the first person walking past me doesn’t immediately recognize me. And everywhere I go, people don’t immediately recognize me. And that must be incredibly intrusive confining. You can’t go anywhere without being recognized and the opposite of that is the incarcerated person who literally can’t go anywhere and go anywhere and is not recognized as a human not recognized. But it’s interesting that you’ve found those two extremes.

Cat Geernleaf (37:33)

The poll well dr. Ron I am Yeah, I guess yeah, yes it is You know I think of the way I relate in this world is like I want to mean lying everything need to be in it and it’s most you know gnarly form whatever that is and That’s a rough way to live

Extraordinary addiction and extreme…

Dr Ron Ehrlich (37:59)

can be challenging for those around you.

Cat Geernleaf (38:00)

Yes, that’s why I’m saying it’s incredible that I’ve been married and have these kids and the whole thing. However, it’s who I am, it’s how I am, that’s the deal. And I have been able to, thank God, carve out a life, getting as close to the flame as I want to. I like hearing real stories. And I like, I just like stories, period.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (38:00)

Isn’t podcasting a great thing to do because you get to talk to people each week and here and it’s kind of reinforcing. mean, I, I always have described the podcast as being the most self-indulgent form of education that I’ve ever engaged in. Cause every week, every week I get to invite people on like yourself, for example, you know, lot about addiction and, recovery and have spoken to a lot of people.

And hey, I’m talking to you and I’m learning so much. I hope my audience is too. But that’s part of the experience, isn’t it?

Cat Geernleaf (39:01)

It’s such a wild thing, this whole podcast universe. know, my husband and I are journalists. We were trained on beta tapes, you know. Let’s see, I’m 53, I’ve been at it about 30 years. So for us, media was one thing, it a one-way conversation. You know, I’m going to make a story and I’m going to put it there and you’re going to receive it. That’s and I’m different because I know how to do this thing and I have the air time. Now, the whole world has the air time and the whole world puts it out and then also receives. And it is completely different than how I was trained. But the democratization of the art form of broadcast is really cool because of precisely what you just said. Anybody can talk to anybody else about anything and do it in front of people so other anybody else’s can learn. I mean, it is wild. It doesn’t resemble at all the industry in which I was trained, but it’s very cool. It’s very cool.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (40:11)

But it’s also addictive, isn’t it? I mean, this attention… Well, I mean, I think this comes to what we talking about, the challenges you have with your young daughters and that we all have. And that is what we’re all addicted to now is attention. We’re part of the attention economy and we are the resource. Our attention is the resource and it’s being really well packaged up, very addictive. Dopamine’s pumping away a lot.

Cat Geernleaf (40:47)

Yeah, yeah, you’re absolutely right. You’re absolutely right. I hadn’t really thought about it like that. But yes, it is the attention economy. Now, I just want to say this about attention. And we were talking earlier about celebrity and getting addicted to that or what it’s like to have all that attention on you. I do think it’s addictive. But and I see that sometimes in celebrities relationship to fame, it’s God, it’s too much sometimes. They just want to be left alone. But then why isn’t anyone looking at me?

Dr Ron Ehrlich (41:24)

That’s the business model, isn’t it? Look at me.

Cat Geernleaf (41:28)

But it’s getting too much. don’t want you look at me, but why is no one looking at me? you know, that’s, so when I see their survivors, it’s not easy being a celeb either, you know, because develop an unhealthy relationship with attention, you know, like in cases of abuse, an unhealthy relationship with that kind of attention. And I don’t think anybody’s above it. You know, we all love, we love that warm glow of.

You want to look at me? aren’t I fabulous? What if we look at me from this end? You know, and you can understand why that feels so good. And so it is a very odd thing to not want it because it’s intrusive, but then want it because well, I just want, you know.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (42:13)

Coming back to the democratization of it, you can now curate your own, literally curate your own life that the world sees. And that’s part of the addiction and AI adds another, you know, another tool to the box where the person, person, I use that in inverted commas, the thing you are talking to is, is so sycophantic. They think great question. what a great question, Cat, you know.

Yes, and it’s just in a world where people are feeling lonely or isolated, this is a very alluring thing. I I think you’ve had a bit of an insight into addiction, but the big one’s coming or we’re there already.

Cat Geernleaf (43:00)

Like I said, the next pandemic, mean, there’s no doubt about it. But on the high side of this, you have these very lonely people who are in love with their life, right? They’re in love and they they have company. Now, a silver lining here might be like those people are not raping. They’re not committing crimes. They’re not doing unhealthy things that hurt other people in order to fill the hole in their soul. Right. If your phone and do all of it for you and make you feel loved and wanted and needed and even, I don’t know, provide stimulating content or whatever. Could that be enough side maybe?

Dr Ron Ehrlich (43:42)

Maybe. Maybe. I mean I think another addiction, a subcategory of technological addiction is the ubiquitous nature of pornography and the impact that that must be having on relationships. Well on young minds in particular as they develop and try to get a handle on intimacy but on existing relationships and partners expectations. That’s a

Cat Geernleaf (44:09)

Wow, that’s so interesting.

But I hadn’t thought about it. Listen, I have several vices. doesn’t have to be. But I hear again, I think, well, if someone’s having a sneaky sex life in their own relationship, like, isn’t it great that they can go see something that’s like, and then now they’re back home with their their partner at the end of the night having their boring sex, but they’re thinking about this other great thing, you know, so that’s so bad.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (44:38)

No, well, you’re definitely a half cup full person. can tell that. But either. Yeah, no, I quite agree. And it is a question of balance, isn’t it? Because where would we be without technology? But where would we be without technology? You know, I mean, the answer to both those questions, you know, is an interesting one. Well, how do you navigate that now with your kids? mean, OK, let’s agree that technology is a major addiction for all of us. And I would say to parents of young children, my daughters are a little bit older than yours, Kat, they’re in their late 30s now. So I’ve passed that, but I can still say it’s an issue for particularly one of them.

Cat Geernleaf (45:26)

Yeah, listen, how do I know? So I have sons actually. How do I navigate it? Badly. It’s it’s not it’s the train has left the station in terms of we can’t they can’t not have a phone. I I hobbled my younger son, my older son, sorry, socially. And I didn’t realize it when you started middle school, all the kids had phones. And he didn’t because I thought, why would you need a phone? I didn’t, you know, again, I’m pretty isolated. So I didn’t know other parents with kids. Anyway long story short, like he was such a sweet boy, he didn’t mention it. But then on the way into eighth grade, I’m like, maybe it’s time you get a phone. And he was like, everybody’s had them for two years, you know, and, and so it’s okay. So that was a mistake. Now be my kids have unlimited screen time because I am not organized enough as a mom to learn how to turn off the apps and just, you know,

For every rule I make around here, like from six to nine, phones. mean, everything lasts a day and then we all go back to doing whatever we’re So I have not learned how to handle this well. What I’m really up against with it is the, and this isn’t new, but the messaging that the kids are getting, your skin isn’t good, your hair isn’t good, your, my guys are beautiful. They’re gorgeous. Everything’s good. But the messages that they’re getting from TikTok are, you know, you, you need this, you smell that this, that the other. And how do I combat that? I don’t know. You’re not gonna believe your mom when she tells me you’re perfect, you know, so I don’t know. I don’t know. I try to keep them busy, man, doing other things, sports, whatever, which they dutifully do so that they can come home and get back on their feet.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (47:17)

No, no, no, I was going to say it is a huge challenge and you’re not just up against an idea, you’re up against a whole economy.

Cat Geernleaf (47:25)

A whole economy. And I mean, it’s the way it’s programmed to just be so attractive and appealing. But but I was gonna say earlier, look what I was doing at 12 drinking alcohol. So is what they’re doing that much worse? And that’s usually what I come to when I’m just ready to, you know, punch myself in the face yet another time for being a terrible mother around these screens. I do have to remember what a terrible kid I was.

I wonder, you know, the worst thing they’re doing is like over YouTube. I don’t know. Is that as bad as going out there and getting wasted, waking up places I didn’t know, driving drunk? I don’t know.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (48:17)

Yeah. I don’t I mean, I think this generation, maybe I really don’t know this for sure, but I wonder whether substance abuse is a little less than it was, you know, when perhaps we were growing up. know, maybe kids today aren’t drinking as much they’re smoking as much. I’m sure the presence of gummies, which state are you, where are you in America? Is it legalized? Is marijuana legalized? Yeah.

Cat Geernleaf (48:31)

I’m in New York. It is at an adult only dispenser.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (48:35)

Yes, yes, yes.

Cat Geernleaf (48:42)

But, you know, a kid finds some gummy worms in their parents’ desk drawer and they are taken, you know?

Dr Ron Ehrlich (48:49)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s a problem. Listen, so good to talk to you and we’re going to have links to your podcast too. But look, you’ve dealt with this from a lot of different ways, from a lot of different people. I mean, the range of people you’re talking to is really cutting across all of society here. What would be for our audience, what are three practical steps or mindset shifts that you would recommend for people who are trying to address their particular addictive personality.

Cat Geernleaf (49:21)

At first I’d say you are not powerless. You are not powerless. And your greatest weapon is choice, decision. You have the decision to make to seek help if you’re not strong enough to stop your substance at the moment. You have the decision. Look, no one’s saying it’s easy. None of this is easy. But you are absolutely. That was really demonic sounding, wasn’t it? No, no, this is AD. But it’s not. So, okay. So you’re not powerless. The greatest weapon you have is decision. And if this disgusting, low, bottom, mean, drunk could give it up, I am telling you, so can you. So as people say to me, and I love it, you don’t have any faith in yourself at the moment for us.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (50:18)

Well, that’s a nice note to finish on. And thank you so much. Thanks for sharing your stories, your wisdom, your… and doing your podcast and getting this message out. And I love your energy and I love the message too. So thank you so much for joining us.

Cat Geernleaf (50:31)

Thank you.

Dr Ron Ehrlich (50:32)

Well, as I say, over these next few weeks, we are dealing with this subject of addiction from a few different perspectives, but we will have links, of course, to Kat Greenleaf’s Sovereigness podcast. mean, she has a wonderful energy and I can imagine the podcast itself with her conversations with celebrities. It gives us a real rare insight into celebrity life and its many challenges. I hope this finds you well. Until next time, this is Dr. Ron Ehrlich.

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