Show Note
- National Institute of Integrative Medicine website
- Unstress Episode with Dr Chris Knobbe on disease prevention and ancestral diets
- Unstress Episode with Dr Joachim Fluhrer on cancer
Timestamps
[00:00:00] – Introduction to the Unstressed Podcast
[00:01:30] – Exploring Integrative Medicine
[00:03:00] – Welcoming Professor Avni Sali
[00:04:30] – Integrative vs Traditional Cancer Treatment Approaches
[00:06:00] – The Importance of Health in Cancer Prognosis
[00:07:30] – Impact of Sleep, Diet, and Stress on Cancer Patients
[00:10:00] – How Sensitivity and Stress Affect Cancer Risk
[00:13:00] – Role of Lifestyle and Genetics in Cancer Development
[00:15:00] – Social Isolation as a Risk Factor for Disease
[00:17:30] – Mind-Body Connection and Cancer
[00:20:00] – Final Thoughts on Integrative Health
[00:22:00] – Conclusion and Joining the Unstressed Community
Prof Avni Sali: Attitude matters, an Integrative Approach
Dr. Ron Ehrlich [00:00:00] Feeling stressed, Overwhelmed. It’s time to Unstress your life and focus on controlling what you can control. I’m Dr. Ron Erhlich, host of the Unstress Health podcast, inviting you to join the Unstress health community and discover a holistic approach that helps you more effectively face the daily challenges of our modern world and effectively recover each and every day. Unstress Health is here to provide you with advice and support that is independent of industry and influence and influence. That’s easy to miss but difficult to ignore. Our focus is on building mental fitness. Your mind can be your best friend or your worst enemy. Mental fitness is the key. Our three Phased Approach Targets Mindset. Boost your positive intelligence quotient and move from self-sabotage to self-mastery. Secondly, the challenges We redefine what stress means in our modern world. And thirdly, recovery master the five pillars of Health. As a member of the Unstress health community. You’ll turn obstacles into opportunities with expert led courses, curated podcasts, personalised health assessments, supportive community, and much, much more. Join Unstress Health today and together let’s not just survive but thrive. Click on the link below or visit Unstress health.com. Well, today we are exploring integrative medicine. Well, actually, we’re talking to a ledge. My guest today is Professor Avni Sali. Now Avni is the founding Director of the National Institute of Integrative Medicine, which is located in Melbourne in Victoria, and is established and was established in 2009. Now, previously, Avni was the founding head of the Graduate School of Integrative Medicine at Swinburne University in Melbourne. In the past he was also head of the University of Melbourne Department of Surgery at Heidelberg Hospital. Yes, his background is in surgery and oncology. But basically, Avni is a legend in health care in Australia. I had the pleasure of first sitting in a lecture theatre with Avni over 30 years ago and found his lectures to be not only incredibly informative and inspiring, that very entertaining as well. Avni has been in health care for over 50 years, so he shares some really interesting insights into who is predisposed to illness in general and cancer in particular. And they are insights which may surprise you, but. Or maybe not. Look, I hope you enjoy this conversation I had with Professor Avni Sali, welcome to the show, Avni.
Prof Avni Sali [00:03:01] Nice to talk to you.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:03:03] Have they? You are the director there of the National Institute of Integrative Medicine. And I know your background is on ecology as well. If someone was diagnosed with cancer, as many people are, and they were going to go down two different routes, one would be the traditional allopathic chemotherapy radiotherapy route and the other might be an integrative approach to cancer. How would those two approaches differ?
Prof Avni Sali [00:03:34] Well, I think it’s important to point out that it’s been clearly shown that a healthy cancer patient will do better than an unhealthy cancer patient. But if you conversely apply that to any illness, if you had pneumonia, that could be disrupted, diabetes or a bad disease, The healthier you are, the better you will do with those illnesses. And this definitely applies to the cancer patient. So therefore, the integrated approach becomes really mandatory really in being able to manage a cancer patient in the best way.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:04:18] It almost sounds like a contradiction in terms when you say the healthier patient because the diagnosis of the disease kind of implies they’re not healthy.
Prof Avni Sali [00:04:32] That’s right. Well, that could be a bit confusing. But on the other hand, what we mean is, is the person sleeping normally because you can have cancer and you can either be sleeping or he may not be sleeping and quite commonly, you’re not sleeping well. And we know that to be as healthy as possible, you need to be able to have adequate sleep. So these but then then we move on to diet. If your diet is not healthy. Well, we now got so much information that you clearly are not going to do well with the good cancer or not. If you’ve got a poor diet and you can go through the exercise, combine the stress aspect. So all of these things that help make you as healthy as possible are also the the factors that help improve your prognosis with cancer.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:05:35] I mean, the it seems so logical. I mean, it’s almost it’s almost too simple yet. And yet, you know, it’s not the experience that a lot of people who are diagnosed with cancer has. Is it to.
Prof Avni Sali [00:05:50] Be completely right? In fact, it is. I am I hardly ever remember a patient being asked about their sleep, about their diet, about their exercise. And really, if you and we now know that scientifically, that to have the best prognosis, you need to make yourself as healthy as possible. There are that because people start thinking all you know is having intravenous vitamin C or sure, that can be another factor. But even before we look into specialist type areas, you basically just want to improve the general health of the patient, and that’s really very important. It is interesting that a lot of integrative doctors think that that that is not even that is not completely essential, but it is essential. So if you can just make your patients as healthy as possible, you then start offering them the best possibilities of doing as well as what is possible. Then of course, there are all the additional extra things that you can do.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:07:06] But there’s a kind of this comes to a fundamental question about what causes cancer, cause a lot of people will get a diagnosis of cancer and they’ll ask their doctor, how come? And I think I would imagine nine times out of ten, the doctor, at least traditional allopathic approach would say it’s just genes. You know, like there’s not much you know, what you’re doing is not making much difference. It’s just genetic. Unless, of course, they’re a smoker, even a smoker. Well, there is a reason, but otherwise there’s not. What do you what’s your response to that? Well.
Prof Avni Sali [00:07:43] Look, it used to be thought that it was all with their genes, but now predominantly it is all to do with lifestyle. I mean, genes matter nearly all the time, but not a major effect for most cancers. And. For example, we know that if you live in Japan, you don’t get worse than breast, prostate, breast cancer. But a Japanese guy asked way to a wisdom type lifestyle that get prostate and breast cancer just like the apples. So we’ve got the answer for most cancers and how important genetic factors are compared to large the whole thing. This is one of the most powerful and important things in cancer is are you a sensitive type person? And this is my broad experience in this area. I’ve been interested in the Mind-Body Medicine for a long time and really the way of feeling and the amount of stress you’ve got lies, a major factor and the amount of stress that you’ve got depends on how sensitive you are. For example, politicians. I don’t have the figures for this, but I really liked that. The thing is, they really get cancer. It’s not to say that maybe cancer, but they’re generally not the most sensitive people because they wouldn’t be able to cope with their work. Then after that, had to resign after the first week. People throwing rotten tomatoes at them and and terrible words and saying bad things about them. And since you naturally tend to attract the most sensitive types, but you can see the differences in them in some sense of the moment. For example, let’s look at Mr. Trump. He doesn’t come across as the sort of person who’s going to be giving up because someone’s going to throw rotten tomatoes at whatever they do and say they are different personality types. And the most vulnerable one is the sensitive one. And I see these and have for 50 years. I basically don’t see any sense of a person getting cancer. But there is the other big is that what do you do these stresses? Now, we do know that isolation is about the most important risk factor for disease and longevity. And in December 2018, the British Prime Minister, Theresa may, appointed the world’s first minister for isolation because of the British culture of being basically we’ve got to be here in Australia. We are predominantly British culture, but it’s a mixture. And because we’ve had so many immigrants, it brought in different cultures and sick people talk about the Mediterranean diet and I, I, I say to people, it’s not the Mediterranean diet because they’re together, There’s people around. Whereas in like typical like our culture even even that is being diluted and isolation is a major factor and this is being measured and it’s while recognise in mental health problems are really high in this country. And isolation again ends up being the key fact that plus the too many rules and regulations. I mean, if I was to drop in and not knock on someone’s door at 9:00 at night, they probably call the place sick or is in the Mediterranean dog gone. But they’d all be clapping as though they could. That’s what knocked on the door. Yeah. So the business, the ability to have someone to share your problems with is really important, essentially. And then if you don’t have someone that you can share your issues with, then that really puts you at big risk and particularly cancer. And I very rarely see an exception here. Well, and you know as well, in fact, probably it’s one of the reasons why I why I have been working with cancer patients because they’re generally pleasant people. They’re not the sort of people come in and tell you.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:12:12] What an interesting observation. I’ve I’ve never I mean, given your experience there, as you say, 50 plus years, I’m guessing 50 years of on this, this is that that’s a that’s a really big statement about about the type of I mean and I agree with you, but I think it’s incredible.
Prof Avni Sali [00:12:30] It’s really very important in relationships. And you see this, that the cancer patients, usually they’re quite the more sensitive person then the partner will be, the more extroverted type control thought person is that is more the, you know, rules and regulations, which is what a sensitive person does need that and in particular the ability in a. Well, unlike a British culture that we mainly have in this country. So the British went and appointed I don’t know what the minister was Israel has done since they’ve been appointed. But it was a very good idea. And clearly Theresa may was able to do it because there is the evidence that isolation is now the most important fact that if you haven’t got someone to talk to. And when we look at Mediterranean, when my parents came to my country and I understand that very well, there’s people all over the place and there’s there’s not that many rigid rules, don’t do these and don’t do that and etc.. Some people say that there should be more rules in some of these countries. But if you look at the the people and survive as them do, they do have better longevity than basically places where they’re living authorities, less pressure and stress, and they’ve got people around to talk to and they don’t live in big mobs. The cities are the big ones. The cities are not really the way to go. I mean, it’s ridiculous. In Australia we have the biggest cities, but population there in any place in the world and the rest of the space is an occupied.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:14:21] I mean, there’s an irony, isn’t there, that we are surrounded by people and yet we can be so easily isolated.
Prof Avni Sali [00:14:28] Yes, yes. And I try and have someone that you can have a coffee with or a drink with on the weekend. Just like that. Not easy. You know.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:14:42] Which kind of kind of begs the question because I know NiMH, the National Institute of Integrative Medicine, where you are, is the home of the biggest lockdown. I mean, this is about reflections from a pandemic. I mean, talk about isolation. Talk about public health measures. Talk about mental health problems. How do you how do you reflect on that? I mean, you think it’s pretty.
Prof Avni Sali [00:15:07] Well, it’s really just that the Sweden in Sweden virtually didn’t bring in lockdowns in Sweden just handled it just like any other infection. And they have got basically the best results. And it’s not referred to often as it always should be referred to it compared with the others who did something different, then they did something different and lockdown. Of course, we we’re finding that, as in so many negative consequences, that is isolated people even more, especially in these British culture type countries where where you may not be communicating with others really well at all. And so I really find. If you’re sensitive and you don’t want to talk to you, it could be a risk in particular for cancer. I’d like to do that study on the politicians, too.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:16:03] Yeah, that’s. That’s kind of intrigued me. There is?
Prof Avni Sali [00:16:06] Yeah. I mean, in I do hear 2 or 3 times a year that a politician got cancer, but it’s very rare because 50% of the people get cancer. Yeah. Well yeah, and I can understand why they died and I don’t think I don’t think Trump is going to get cancer this year.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:16:25] No, no, no. But listen, you know this we coming back to how we started that there are, you know, being healthier. Really simple things make the biggest difference. What is that? Just not intellectually stimulating enough for the medical profession to take seriously?
Prof Avni Sali [00:16:41] That I find that very disappointing. And it can be very stimulating just to get to know the person and talk about their life. And and it can be quite rewarding because people can do these things that are complicated and difficult and expensive is they, but and they all can be done and then you can move on to other more complex things like look at the details of diet and and we do and the metabolic approach which is becoming more popular and that quite a good book has been written for the public by a physiotherapist from the UK who did a cancer spread and she was told that they couldn’t they couldn’t save it, but she went ahead and saved herself. And a book called How to Stop Cancer and is basically based on reducing the carbohydrates. And the other one that seems to be important in the metabolic area is the low density lipoprotein, the bad cholesterol. And it it’s possible that you could improve the doses just by reducing calories and and improving around the cholesterol. So you can’t get the the data on this and and hopefully it could make a difference. And theoretically it would be and you do make a difference, but we don’t do conclusive results. But it is very likely it’d be beneficial for other conditions as well, because by reducing the carbohydrate and reducing the the and LDL cholesterol, it is important that they are they are problems and it’s called the keto diet, that high protein, high fat, low carbohydrate. But there are parts of that diet aren’t so healthy think and make sense cause well and that profoundly important for our microbes in our body and they’re very healthy foods anyhow. So basically that needs a modification. The strict keto diet would not appear to be very healthy. So then you can get into details and that may be a benefit. One of the problems that we do have in doing research, I mean, firstly, the, the, the culture of that health is, is a drug culture. So really the, the, the pharmaceutical industry benefits most when we’ve got more more sick people. Healthy people are really the worse thing they’ve had which is in a bad way. Is that really the if we depend on that sickness to be able to for the pharmaceutical industry to do well, then it is a real problem. So it is a bit of a drug culture and that of course is very essential and when used correctly, they can be very beneficial. But it’s a question of firstly making the person as healthy as possible. They’ll then deal with the drugs because the conventional cancer treatments is basically chemotherapy and radiotherapy. And more recently we’ve got immunotherapy. But all of those treatments are quite toxic. And unless your health is another reason why you need to be healthy just to cope with these toxic treatments.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:20:36] What have any, I think people will have heard a lot about chemotherapy and radiotherapy and obviously surgery, but immunotherapy, you’ve mentioned it. It’s you know, you’ve just thrown that word in there. And I wondered if you might just. Give us a little bit of immunotherapy 101. What is the theory behind immunotherapy?
Prof Avni Sali [00:20:56] Well, in the natural medicine and in integrative medicine, it’s always been the approach that we. One of the reasons why we try and make the business healthy as possible is to improve their immunity. And the reason why you need adequate sleep immunity, the reason for exercise again, immunity. So all of these factors help improve the way your body defences work, which are also very important in in the attack on cancer. With the immunotherapy drug use, they can improve the immunological response. In many instances they can improve it so much that people have even developed auto immune illnesses because the immunity is a bit too active and can attack areas of the body. And so therefore, immunotherapy, when is used with medications, one needs to be as to be very cautious just how much immuno stimulation you create in the patient, because that can actually lead to many side effects. And so but it is about making the immunity better. And we’ve seen very impressive results in, for example, spray melanoma, which is one of the cancers that is very closely linked, the immunity. But things like kidney cancer, lung cancer and several other cancers, and that is hardly a cancer now where there isn’t a trial some way with pancreas cancer, where immunotherapy is being trialled.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:22:38] And is it is it a medication or is it taking an element of the body’s immune system and turbocharging it?
Prof Avni Sali [00:22:46] These is patient specific drugs that are being developed. Right? Right. And now the refining of these drugs will be, I think, a big part of the future, future treatment as such. But it’s taken a long time for the pharmaceutical industry to move away from just chemotherapy and radiotherapy and that and now using immunotherapy, which is more scientific in a way because it attacks the cancer. But again, we have learned that it can be toxic because they can make the immunity to active and they can do damage as well.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:23:32] Hi, Dr. Ryan. Here it. I want to invite you to join our Unstress health community. Now, like this podcast, it’s independent of industry and focuses on taking a holistic approach to human health and to the health of the planet. The two are inseparable. There are so many resources available with membership, including regular live Q&A on specific topics with special guests, including many with our amazing Unstress Health Advisory Panel that we’ve done hundreds of podcasts over listening to with some amazing experts on a wide range of topics. Many are world leaders, but with membership we have our Unstress web podcast series where we take the best of several guests and carefully curated specific topics for episodes which are jam packed full of valuable insights. So join the Unstress health community. If you’re watching this on our YouTube channel. Click on the link below or just visit Unstress health.com to see what’s on offer and join now. I look forward to connecting with you. I think this is coming back to the idea of slash burn and cut a cancer out versus harness the body’s metabolic or immune function.
Prof Avni Sali [00:24:56] You know.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:24:57] And this comes to mitochondrial function, which kind of leads into a whole story about the importance of sunshine and light, our relationship with light. This has changed a lot. What is your thought when you hear.
Prof Avni Sali [00:25:12] Somebody tells me ever would see a cancer patients that they buy them and they measured for be we can’t live without sunlight. And and of course Melbourne is the cloud is major city in Australia and one of the clouds in the world. Look at the Great Dividing Range that stops all the clouds as they come from the West. And as we look at the big wind there, we have the ABC, The Sun, and then I see everything is calm and I have yet light and it’s going to be in countries that add vitamin D to the foods to ensure that people get a month long day, especially during those six months where there’s very little sunlight. And vitamin D is an absolutely essential nutrient for a patient to do well and to treat a cancer based on that doing environment the well, it’s unlikely that you’re going to get the best result. If they’re going to be vitamin D division, which almost most of the time it will be there.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:26:17] I mean, I mean, in terms of a public health measure, the demonisation of the sun has got to be one of the most illogical and dumb public health measures ever. Would you agree with that?
Prof Avni Sali [00:26:30] Yes. Book is some pretty basic things with the sun. The sun is good, but it’s really important to wear sunglasses. The commonest main diseases of the eye, cataract and macular degeneration, the common cause of blindness, are probably predominantly due to the sun. But if you wear sunglasses, you don’t get those conditions. You really need to make it a routine to wear sunglasses at all times when you’re out out in the sun. Well.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:26:57] Okay. I think that’s an interesting comment because we did we did a program with somebody with Chris Ghosh. He’s an ophthalmologist and he was out cannabis. Chris came over and he was talking about macular degeneration as a function of seed oils. And, you know, a lot of these so-called vegetable oils, sunflower, safflower, canola, you know, that these processed oils were the greatest threat to macular degeneration.
Prof Avni Sali [00:27:31] Is in species, especially medium, where sunglasses.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:27:34] So can I get you very clean on the sunglasses? I know this in I.
Prof Avni Sali [00:27:41] I need three and I want sunglasses. Certainly for the last 40 years, all the time. I don’t wear glasses for reading or anything either, but we know scientifically that it protects it from having the developing a generic and also make the generation is such a simple thing. It’s just the habit of getting to wear sunglasses.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:28:04] Interesting. But you get out in the sun quite a bit. Acne I imagine.
Prof Avni Sali [00:28:08] At the in in winter I do think a vitamin D supplement but as we’ve learnt is eat with the vitamin. And I find this very interesting. The rule is that we’ve had studies looking at osteoporosis, using calcium, using vitamin D, and that would be pretty conclusive and that’s gotten all the bad. I too, because K2 puts your extra calcium that you might absorb because it’d be a bottom in day in the or bone rather than in your coronary artery or your aortic valve. And said K2 was that maybe the last year and as come alive and clearly got osteoporosis you need to be taking K2.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:28:56] I mean I mean interesting to hear you pull out K2 because Weston I price a dentist from a hundred years ago. Yes. I was talking about Activator X, The X Factor, which actually turned out to be vitamin K2.
Prof Avni Sali [00:29:12] Is is, is. And that’s a it’s very important. If you’re taking vitamin D, you need to be drinking K2 to ensure that if you see one of the things that is becoming an epidemic is calcification of coronary arteries in classifications of aortic valves. And that K2 seems to be a very important factor in trying to prevent that.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:29:40] Now now happening, you know National Institute of. Greatest medicine. Nim, tell us a little bit about it.
Prof Avni Sali [00:29:48] Well, we. I. After I was in of the surgery department at the Heidelberg Hospital at the University of Melbourne. And one of the things that I was doing with a popular I did some of the first nutrition research in this country in the 1970s, starting over the eating habits of primary school children. The people really, you know, be talking to me and say, You still doing surgery or you’re just looking at the kid’s habits. You know, the the. And we did. We started the first nutrition research work in this country. And and prior prior to that. Well, even now it is ridiculous that you can basically do medicine with that with that much nutritional teaching at all. And that and I mean as I do saying is that your to my patients it’s probably better than talking to your next door neighbour about nutrition than your, you know, then your GP. And the other thing is that the, the way people are rewarded financially, that plays a big part too, as to what type of meat is. And then we let people talk about six minute minutes and in other words, the prescriptions written and off you go. And we do it as it’s. I find it disappointing that about two weeks ago I see on television that they discovered that I mean, antibiotics when you’re a baby increases your risk of asthma. It’s been known for years that it destroys your microbes. And and unfortunately, Australian babies had more antibiotics prescribed during their first year than probably most in any country in the world. And these infections of virals and antibiotics should not be used. And because they don’t mention damage and so understanding that is really very important. The I went on after you these at the University of Melbourne, the set up the Graduate School of Integrative Medicine in about mid 90s and Swinburne University. I was able to do it because I didn’t have a medical faculty. If I had a medical think of it, isn’t that what I’d be able to do it? There was still a lot of resistance in saying and, and but we eventually did do that and the Vice-Chancellor was really very supportive and it was probably, as far as I can say, one of the most active vice chancellors in Australia and he is excited to be able to have such a school which would improve the the, the condition of doctors but also the health of Australians. But he retired after about ten years and there is the university wanted to give us, like the engineers and the scientists, they thought that we weren’t scientific enough. So it’s just it’s quite interesting in that because we live in a drug culture and culture is so strong in people and you know, it can play a big part in what people do and who they are then as people realise. So we eventually it did move from there and, and we did set up the the National Institute of Integrative Medicine, which is quite unique in the world. And then we were a charitable institution and, and we do research. We’ve got the biggest integrated clinic in this country, but probably one of the biggest in the world. And, and and we’re involved in education as well. But it is difficult and and we’re very active in research. And the fact that we can say that without getting $0.01 from the government, we don’t get any research from the government. Well, you know, the major health bodies like TGA is predominantly funded by the pharmaceutical industry, so therefore there’s going to be a bias there and I don’t think that it should exist. And we and we have that with the government. But when you look at who’s who’s giving support to the political parties, well, it’s the people who’ve got the most money and we don’t get any support from the government. I suppose they’re being very smart. Why support us? Because all we do is make people healthy and it’s not good for the industry. As I said before, you need sick people, not healthy people, which is stupid, really. And but there’s no way that the public want this. And we now know that 70% plus subset of the Australian public are looking for a health medicine and that’s what basically supports us. But we.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:34:50] Do. We do.
Prof Avni Sali [00:34:52] Probably more significant clinical research work here to do with the whys, whether it be cancer, blood, fresh disease and and a number of other conditions. Memory, for example, that memory loss, Alzheimer’s. And we’re involved in numerous studies using mice in the treatment of prostate cancer. We’ve done a pioneering study here where we can show that we can create prostate cancer with laser and which could lead to that avoiding prostatectomy. And it’s a very, very, very useful treatment. So the research in the area is very important because it can offer a better way to treat illness. And the the the license proved to be very, very interesting. And we’re doing quite a few things that these. And like you can lie in a bed it produces lights at light and that can penetrate the skin won’t penetrate to treat deep cancers but all the cancer cells circulate and we measure. Circulating cancer cells is the French technology. And we can show that by using the laser we can reduce the circulating cancer cells. And one of the areas we really like to look at, people have thought always that because of manipulation of the cancer during surgery, then you’re likely to increase the circulating cancer cells. But it’s never been measured. So we plan to do that because we can measure the circulating cancer cells and the the the. So during surgery, you’re increasing music many cancer cells by certainly. But also the surgery itself because it dictates the rates. For example, you can’t make volume and see bats and guinea pigs can’t either. So at the end of the same two hour operation, you was able to see. So your immunity doesn’t function properly. It also, I believe, and I’ve noticed this about 40 years ago, but I have been able to do the study. We’ve actually got the study ready to do. We’re just waiting for some funding which would change the way operations are being carried out throughout the world that you give vitamin C during or at the end of surgery in order that you allow the immunity to function properly. But also you protect the brain is the brain can be damaged very easily when you run into monoamine see is it is quite simple and it’s a more toxic treatment. And but we think that this could also be a very important guide for determining whether or not you’re going to get this brain cancer because you’re mobilising these cancer cells during the surgery, but your immunity is down. So therefore, is cancer cells that you to survive? This is an opportune time for them to survive because the immunity is down, because firstly, both my body have been C and also the stress, the trauma or the operation is immunosuppressive. So we think that is the be study that we’ve been doing and it is a huge potential immediately after surgery because it mobilises these cancer cells. But we can destroy those with laser and very exciting work.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:38:32] And when you say laser, what are we talking about? Low energy laser were red light. What what sort of.
Prof Avni Sali [00:38:37] Light is it? Is the low energy It is the more dense it might be in it for a half an hour and during a time we think. But we’ll find with further experimentation that we we’ve already got preliminary data that’s destroying the circulating cancer cells and assuming that the circulating cancer cells are going up as a result of cancer manipulation during surgery, then this would appear to be a very useful thing for obviously any cancer patient death.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:39:12] Now. So you mentioned circulating cancer cells and it’s reminded me of a program we did many over a couple of years ago with Dr. Johann Flora, who I’m sure you’re very familiar with because, I mean, Joakim has been very involved in this circulating cancer cells. Is this is a way of measuring, well, cancer activity in the body, isn’t it really?
Prof Avni Sali [00:39:34] Well, really, look, it is very important because really seen as a great example of the cancer prostate cancer surgeon operating on some trees that and said we got it all. Here it is. We got it all. You got all of the cancer, those in the prostate. And unfortunately, you haven’t got the cancer cells in the body because the other ones that are likely to cause trouble in the future. And that’s why it’s so very important, the healthy body, to deal with these lack of any cancer cells or even using the nicer treatment which we’re using now to destroy the circulating cancer cells.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:40:13] And the the like bed is another kind of focus on on actual metabolic health, isn’t it really? I mean, that’s really what the focus is on to stimulate mitochondrial function. Is that a fear?
Prof Avni Sali [00:40:28] Well, the mechanisms, of course, you sensitise the cancer cells to the to the laser, to the light, to particular light in that that the normal cells don’t take up the sensitiser and hence the cancer cells become sensitive to the laser light, which can actually destroy the cancer cells. So it is really in principle a very, very, very good treatment to be looking at.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:40:59] And it is circulating is measuring circulating cancer cells an accessible, you know, tool to be used and.
Prof Avni Sali [00:41:08] Is being done by, in particular, the French private 15 years. And there’s many articles that have been published. I find it interesting how it has not been able to be more popular. In fact, you don the ever hear of anyone talking at an international cancer conference about it? But to me it seems that it for the future, better care of cancer patients that it will become an essential part of the care of a cancer patient.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:41:41] You’ve also mentioned you’ve mentioned a couple of times that we have a drug culture and and the disease is and I know I’ve often said it that our current health system is a great economic model. It’s just not a very good health model. And part of the problem really is and I think the British Medical Journal did an article on this not that long ago about the role of key opinion leaders and product champions in very senior positions in our health system. Is that your observation as well?
Prof Avni Sali [00:42:15] I is. I think that that seems to be relatively true. And. Well, that. You’re a key opinion leader and you’re running big business. You want them on your side.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:42:30] Ebony I will going to have links to Nim and so people can learn more about what integrative approach to health is all about. I just wondered why take a step back before we finish up and just say what? We were all on a health journey as individuals in this modern world. Taking a step back from your role in medicine over many years and the fact that you’ve been on that journey for 83 years. What do you think the biggest challenges for individuals on that health journey through life?
Prof Avni Sali [00:43:00] Well, I think the culture of living is very important because as we are now recognising that isolation would appear to be the most important reason for that and for disease and for longevity. So therefore, you need people around you and the and you don’t need all the extra stresses. I mean, technology, stress and stress stresses and speed limits. Look, it makes a lot of sense. But, you know, if you’re constantly stressed about the speed that you’re driving and the very important, of course, and they’re all factors in increasing the stress in date. And on the other side, you’re isolating people because of the culture that we live in. We need back up. We need people around us. And we already have this information and studies. I mean, there’s been a TV program recently that went on for about four weeks and they looked at the longevity factors and they basically come back to the fact that they’d be good people to talk to. Can you go for a walk? Can you have some sunshine? What’s your diet like? And if those things are pretty good, then you can do quite well. In particular, if you’re sensitive, you need to have someone to unload with to share your problems with. And it and there’s some very good evidence of that. For example, in breast cancers, which if you’ve got one component, you improve survival by 15%. If it’s up to components to class for energy and brutalism all wide, 25% into the breast cancer. Just by having these three guys for it.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:44:44] Wow. Well, let me thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom with us. I first heard your you lectured first to me over 30 years ago, and I always found you so inspiring. And it’s such a pleasure to have you on the program. Thank you so much.
Prof Avni Sali [00:45:01] Thank you very much, John. Thank you. Thank you for the good work that you do. Thank you.
Dr Ron Ehrlich [00:45:05] Thanks. Well, there it is. Avni obviously is quite a character and has an incredible wealth of knowledge and experience in health care, oncology and in the field of integrative medicine. I mean, he is one of the leaders in Australia, is not globally on integrative medicine. And look, we don’t have to agree with everything that everyone says, and I’m not sure I agree with Abney about sunglasses, but that’s a whole story in itself. The point being, as the world we live in becomes increasingly more complicated. The solutions are remarkably simple, accessible, sustainable, and most effective and most important, effective. And what an interesting idea. The healthier you are, the more likely you are to recover from an illness, even when that illness requires therapy, intervention, chemotherapy, surgery or whatever. Try to be healthy. And this is also interesting because often and I’ve heard this so many times over 40 years of of my own clinical practice, that when people are diagnosed with a serious illness, they will often reflect on it as one of the best things that’s ever happened to them if they survive. And that is because it’s forced areas valuation of their life and their lifestyle and they’re focussed on being healthy. And that is really the empowering message of this podcast. It’s an empowering message of the integrative medical field, but it’s an important message of the Unstress health community as well, which I would encourage you to join. I hope this finds you well. Until next time. This is Dr. Ron Erlich. They well, feeling stressed. Overwhelmed. It’s time to Unstress your life. Join the Unstress health community and transform stress into strength. Build mental fitness from self-sabotage to self-mastery. And together, let’s not just survive, but thrive. Expert led courses, curated podcasts, like minded community and support, and much more. Visit Unstress health.com today. This podcast provides general information and discussion about medicine, health and related subjects. Content is not intended and should not be construed as medical advice or as a substitute for care by a qualified medical practitioner. If you or any other person has a medical concern, he or she should consult with an appropriately qualified medical practitioner. Guests who speak in this podcast express their own opinions, experiences and conclusions.