Daniel Baden is a well-known and respected Naturopath and Homoeopath within the Australian and international complementary therapies industry and community. Beginning his journey as a clinician, Daniel has assumed many roles over the years including; consultant to and member of industry regulatory committees, providing technical support to practitioners, assisting various groups in research projects, lecturer, author, and co-founder BioMedica Nutraceuticals.

A highly experienced presenter, Daniel has been involved in natural health education since 1990. His extensive experience and interest in ongoing practitioner education, ensure his seminars are an empowering and worthwhile experience for all attendees. His focus has always been on embracing the principles of holism in everyday practice.

Podcast Transcript

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Unstress. My name is Dr Ron Ehrlich. I’d like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which I am recording this podcast. The Gadigal people of the Eora Nation and pay my respects to their elders past, present, and emerging.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:00:15] Well, in today’s episode, we are going to explore the world of naturopathy, homeopathy, public health, chronic disease, the pandemic response, and much, much more. My guest is Daniel Baden, one of Australia’s best-known and respected naturopaths and homeopaths. And not just in Australia, but also in the international complementary therapies, industry, and community. 

He’s been very involved in both for over 20 or 30 years, beginning his journey as a clinician Daniel has assumed many roles over the years, including consultant to and member of many industry regulatory committees, providing technical support to practitioners, assisting various groups in research projects. 

He’s a lecturer and author, a co-founder and executive director of Biomedical Nutraceuticals, one of the most highly regarded supplement companies used by health practitioners in Australasia. He is currently on the Executive Board of the Complementary Medicines Association, CMA as chair of the Practitioner Committee. He is a highly experienced presenter. 

Daniel has been lecturing to the general public, undergraduates, and practitioners since 1990. His extensive experience and interest in ongoing practitioner education ensures that his seminars are empowering and a worthwhile experience for all attendees and most recently, Daniel presented webinars for health practitioners only on the pandemic, which we discuss in some detail in this episode and which interestingly has been attended by over 20,000 health practitioners. 

So, Daniel, is someone health practitioners are keen to listen to. Daniel is also a board member of the Australasian College of Nutritional and Environmental Medicine (ACNEM). I hope you enjoy this conversation I had with Daniel Baden.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:02:27] Welcome to the show, Daniel.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:02:30] Hi, Ron lovely to be here. Thank you.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:02:31] Daniel, I’ve been looking forward to talking to you because I know you in the world of naturopathy, homeopathy, complementary medicine, you listen to by many, many people and I’m looking forward to sharing you with my listeners. Naturopathy. I wonder if you could just tell us what is naturopathy? What’s the guiding principles behind it?

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:02:53] Well, thanks, Ron I guess the two primary principles to treat the person and not just treat the cause, which, you know, we talk about more than that’s talked about as holistic medicine, I guess and the other thing is to understand and respect the power of nature and its ability to heal are really important. 

So traditionally, you know, historically naturopathy has been around for a very long time and it’s progressed and it’s evolved over time. However, you know the one fundamental, which I feel is really important, is around education, and naturopaths have been treated or treated themselves as teachers. And it’s really about you know teaching our patients or our clients, whatever you want to call them. But I call them patients in how to, you know, live their life with more fulfillment and a healthier approach to their life. 

So for me, education is a really important aspect. And part of that education is, is really helping patients understand their relationship with the external environment and the internal environment and that means everything that they live in, everything that we live in as humans, I should say and it’s I find it fascinating because every journal I pick up for every disease, just about whether it’s oncology or whether it’s diabetes or psychological disorders, all you can find reference is spending more time in nature as part of the cure. You know, recently, you know, Canadian doctors, as an example, we’re given a licence to give free nature park permits to patients with mood disorders.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:04:49] Wow.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:04:49] Because they recognise that it completely changes people’s mindset oncology we like an analogy, we like it because, you know, it’s kind of interesting. Trains drop little particles which are irritants to the immune system which you know, trigger a positive immune response. 

So this stuff’s all in the journals, but we just as we build more concrete around us, we don’t spend enough time in nature. So I guess naturopathy to get back to the point yeah is really about we’re looking at all of these aspects which affect us as humans and trying to find a path back to that balance of what’s important.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:05:30] It’s interesting, isn’t it, because people are really seeking out this kind of approach. I mean, intuitively, I mean, there are the cohort that go, I’m going to the doctor, he’s going to give me a prescription. That’s what I expect and often they are not disappointed. But there’s a huge cohort of people in the population that want more and that more is exactly what you described.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:05:54] Yeah, look, I think there’s a few aspects to that and I think people often just forget they get caught up in their busy, busy lives and they forget just to spend time in nature. And, you know, in all of our cities in Australia and other parts of the world, we’re so fortunate to be surrounded by Bush and we’re so fortunate to have these amazing botanical gardens and huge parks in the middle. We just don’t spend enough time in them. Even spending time at the ocean is really important, but it really is changing. That mindset is the education part. That naturopathy is really important to me noted for.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:06:32] Another aspect of the natural world that has ironically been demonized is sun isn’t it?

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:06:39] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s so interesting, you know. And I guess that’s I guess it’s one of the differences between holistic medicine and modern medicine for one of a better word because in holistic medicine you look at something like the sun and you take it as part of the whole, you know, piece of the pizza. You know, that’s the gluten-free pizza, of course. Weight free and organic. 

But, you know, it’s we know that you spend time in the sun and it’s important and it just should be part of what you do every day. But when you have maybe a specialist who just so focussed on one aspect of a person’s being. And they say all these studies show that too much sun exposure causes skin cancer. Therefore, everyone should be out of the sun well, that’s really not realistic. And I know it’s a simplified example.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:07:37] No, but it’s a very powerful message. Public health message.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:07:41] Yeah. Yeah. Now, absolutely. So, you know, I guess naturopathy just steps back and says, we can’t take out one body system or one disease or one aspect by itself. It’s really everything in moderation. And, you know, as my grandmother used to say, in moderation and moderation.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:08:00] Yeah. Yeah. No, no. I love that sort of as you know, as you say, you know, every disease is identified as being part of a lifestyle. A lifestyle has a contributing factor to almost every chronic degenerative disease that’s preventable, like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, autoimmune condition, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And yet it’s really little more than lip service, isn’t it, in many people’s health journeys?

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:08:28] Well, you know, the World Health Organisation has mentioned, you know, cancer as, as having some of the cause of the fact is 30 to 90% depending on which of the studies you quote, but a percentage of cancers have a relationship to diet and lifestyle and as you just said, it’s rarely talked about, you know how many Oncologists talk about it? None as far as I know. And I’ve been dealing in that area for a long time. You know, it’s it’s really it’s so important. But even the journals talk about it, but it just doesn’t seem to come through to the coalface of medical practise that often.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:09:06] Hmm. It’s almost like, you know, you mention it in, in your part in passing. All in lifestyles important. So tick that box. I’ve talked to them I’ve talked to them about lifestyle and that it’s ironic. Now, another aspect that I know you are very familiar with and passionate about is Homeopathy. And tell us a little bit about Homeopathy. 101 You know, like, what are the principles that guide us there?

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:09:33] Well, look, Homeopathy has been around for about 250 years, so getting close to that and basically it’s a very simple ideology of suggesting that what a substance can cause, it can cure and you know, a simple example might be something like an onion. You know, when you cut an onion, you might get stinging eyes and a runny nose. 

And so if a patient comes to see you with those symptoms, which may be high fever or a dust mite allergy or whatever, you might go, oh, you look like someone that’s been cutting up an onion. And therefore I’m going to recommend Homeopathic leave prepared onion to you and you would almost think it’s something that like what an allergist would do because an allergist would often give a small dose of something to build it up. 

And you say that with peanut allergies and that sort of thing in Australia, but it’s a little bit different because the preparation of the homeopathic medicine is quite unique and there are two words that are used in the preparation. One is succussion and one is dilution succussion.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:10:43] I have.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:10:44] Succussion.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:10:44] Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:10:45] So succussion is a process and in that traditionally done by hand where you might take some of the. A small amount of the onion juice. If we keep going with that example, add it to one part to ten parts water and you basically bang it up and down in your hand for a prescribed amount of time to try to get a frequency impression of the onion impregnated into the water. 

So the water holds energy and water is going to hold energy. There’s plenty of documentation right on that aspect, and you’re trying to get it to hold the frequency that’s reflective of whatever the initial substance was and then you download it again. So it becomes one in 100 or one in a thousand, one in a million, one in 50 million, etc. It was the casing all the way through.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:11:37] Right

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:11:38] So in Homeopathic principle, the higher the dilution and the more succussion that’s going on, which suggests that it will act deeper in the body or deeper within the psyche of a human being. So this might be more suited to, you know, where there’s a psychological component to the condition, whereas the lower dose is like a one in 20 or 50 or a thousand might be something that is more physically orientated. 

So if someone came in with, with, you know, going back to the onions, if someone came in with symptoms of high fever, I might use a 1 in a 1,000 or a 1 in 10,000 potency for that patient. If they came in and said, every time I think of my ex-boyfriend, I start crying my eyes to that I get really emotional. You know, I might consider the one-in-a-billion potency of the one-in-10-million potency, depending on the whole symptom picture. It’s far more complicated than I’ve just described. That, in a nutshell, is what? you know what it’s about.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:12:44] Hmm. So dose does not make the poison.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:12:47] It’s no substance, you know?

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:12:50] Yeah. I mean, you were saying actually the more diluted the deeper the potency as in deeper within the individual, rather than just a more superficial problem that might be physically manifest itself.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:13:07] Yeah, that’s right. So I’ll just give you one example and I’ll use myself as an example. When I was a young boy, I had a terrible psoriasis throughout my scalp and neck, and when I was 21, I went to a homeopath who gave me a remedy and it ended up being a remedy. There was a one in 200 thousands dose and he said, take 3 drop or seven drops for three days. That was it, no more, which I did and within a week my psoriasis had gone and I’m a few years older than 21 on that one and it hasn’t come.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:13:46] Just Daniel, and it’s just, Yeah, well, actually, it’s interesting because I had a patient in this week and they’re both academics so they’re really up on evidence base. They’re very big on that and they had a son who had at a very young age was literally banging his head on the floor. You know, that was his symptom and they took him everywhere and it was actually a homeopath that eventually solved the problem. To their surprise, to their surprise.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:14:19] It must have been inconvenient to them.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:14:21] It was. But they were very, obviously very, very delighted with that. And it just reminded me of the, you know, I guess the potency of stuff that we don’t necessarily all understand.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:14:34] No, that’s what I look they struggle with so much stuff we don’t understand. And it’s only arrogance that stops us as humans from, you know, understanding things more.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:14:43] I mean, thinking about that, I’m almost thinking that on that level, we’re talking on a quantum level of how that would be effective.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:14:53] Yeah, look, and I agree with that. And I really think it is that frequency that is so important. And you know, at a quantum level, I guess the best way I could describe, is it resonates with a specific group of cells. So if we took, you know, if you a room and you put a hundred radios in and they’re all tuned to one radio station except for one, which is tuned to another radio station, and you send in the homeopathic frequency. 

It’s only that cell that’s going to pick it up, all that radio. So, it’s really about mimicking the frequency and, and finding the group of cells that that homeopathic remedy will resonate with. It’s, fascinating. And there has been work done by the Koreans, South Koreans around, you know, the bonds of water. You know, that the hydro bonds that hold the water together, oxygen and hydrogen actually having a massive potential to store energy and it’s really fascinating.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:16:03] Hmm.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:16:03] And it changes the process. So a colleague of mine wants to prove that there was a change to the structure of water and I was hoping to find the slide so I could show you. But I’ll send them to you. He photographed water in different homeopathic doses of strength. 

So he took, you know, it was one example, a herb called pulsatilla and he took it, you know, 100 potency, 1000 or millions, etc. And he also used water and you could see when he took it to the cold room at Monash University for a refrigerator frozen. And with a high powerful camera photographed them.

 And you could say that a significant change in the crystallisation of the water. So you could use the most sensitive lab equipment and you would not find any pulse, a tiller, and a 1 to 1M. But you could clearly see that the physical structure, that drop of water had changed beyond what any water had looked like. So something changes.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:17:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, these all constitute and they’re not the only part of what a term that is called complementary medicine. And I know you’ve been very involved in the complementary medicine industry. Talk to, you know, we’re getting a few definitions here today. So tell us about complementary medicine. What encapsulates complementary medicine?

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:17:36] Well, look, for me personally, I’d rather use the word holistic or natural medicine.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:17:40] I like that word holistic. I feel very confident.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:17:44] Because complementary medicine to me means that it’s its complement. You know, the term can mean that it’s complementary to other forms of medicine, which is fine. It is most natural. Most naturopathic medicine is, but it doesn’t have to be. It acts very well as a standalone system of medicine. So for me, I just don’t want to pigeonhole what we do, because I find what natural medicines offer so powerful. I don’t want to be pigeonholed as saying we just assist out the medicines. Yes, it’s just my thinking.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:18:19] No, no, I like that. And I think that’s a good point. That is a good point.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:18:25] So for me, natural medicine, holistic medicine is a better definition of what we offer our patients.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:18:32] Hmm, it’s interesting that word holistic, isn’t it? Because, I mean, I’ve lived with that professionally for almost 40 years. And some of the things that people think it’s about are so out there and weird that it’s almost like people need to be reminded. The human body is a great example of something that is holistic, and if you’re skeptical about that word or that idea, then you have some serious reflection to do.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:19:01] Well, I agree, and it’s kind of funny because the word’s been hijacked by others in the medical profession. And I, I, you know, I think if someone is holistic in a medical profession and they’re truly holistic. Kudos to them. Fantastic. You know, whether they’re a holistic doctor or a holistic dentist or whatever, I do think incorporating those natural medicines into the philosophy of what they do fantastic. 

But when you say some unusual things like a conference, It was a couple of years ago in the US before COVID, and I was walking down the street and saw straight and I had a conversation with the receptionist in a cosmetic surgery place and all they were doing was Botox and, you know, boob lifts and all that sort of thing. 

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:19:47] Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:19:47] And they called it holistic cosmetic surgery. And I’m going, what is holistic about this? There’s no reference to anything else. But it was a fashionable tag I guess.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:20:00] I think one of the things, you know because as a holistic dentist is an example I see, I think it’s about an attitude too, and that is to recognise that a whole range of things affects a person’s health.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:20:16] Yes.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:20:16] And where I as that particular practitioner fit into that model, I don’t necessarily have to have all of the answers and I have all of the holistic features that could impact, but I’d need to be aware of them and respectful of them. I think I’ve always thought of it as a dentist for me, as a dentist with attitude.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:20:39] Dentists with good attitude 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:20:39] Good attitude.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:20:41] Other think any of us know the answers to everything and would be sad if we did because it’s so great to keep learning. But at the end of the day, what you’re offering is a mindset that’s compatible with good outcomes. So you don’t really need to know everything. You need to be able to, you know, accept that there are many aspects to a human being and you’re performing one set of duties. But there are other influences that may affect or might not affect you and your patient and that relationship as much as anything. 

It’s that relationship between the practitioner and the patient. And you know, what I think is probably one of the most important aspects of being a holistic practitioner overall is the ability to listen and just acknowledge whatever our patient is going through is critically, critically important, you know, because, you know, so me and you, I know you would have seen this room so many people come in from standard medicine with describe some symptoms and if it in some the textbook, it doesn’t exist or is in their brain, you know, in their mind. 

And that’s just not true. We just have to accept what our patient is presenting with. And it’s there. It’s the patient’s reality and because it’s the patient’s reality, you know, it’s our duty, our feel, as a practitioner to actually really listen and learn that means not just hear what they’re saying, but really listen to what they saying. I just think is a critical aspect of holistic medicine.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:22:14] I look, I couldn’t agree more and I’m sure you I’m sure people in this field see it all the time because in a short consultation, which is typical of modern medicine, often if the practitioner is not familiar with the patient’s problem or can’t identify or doesn’t know, then they are often dismissed and I think this validation is an important one. 

I mean, we’re jumping we’re going to jump a little bit here because I think, you know, the pandemic has really presented issues around that as well, whether it be the reaction to the virus, whether it’s a long COVID, whether it’s a reaction to the vaccine. You know, what’s been your experience about that in you know, I know you’ve lectured on this just recently.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:23:04] Yeah.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:23:04] and it was extremely well received. I mean, I think you to some health practitioners. 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:23:10] It was a fascinating journey into the mindset of humans and politics and bureaucracy.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:23:18] Yeah, tell us a bit about those two webinars. I know they were for health practitioners, but that’s okay. You could give us sort of a high level.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:23:27] Yes, I’m sure. But the first one was about at the time no one was talking about and everyone was frustrated because no one really understood what the MRNA was all about or, you know, other forms of the new vaccine. So the first one was try and there’s a lot of fear associated with it, you know, and people were scared of COVID, and people were scared of the vaccine, and people were scared of everything. And the media and bureaucracy was just driving this fear. So the levels of anxiety were going through the ceiling. So the first one was an attempt to really and I think successful. 

I hope to try to get people to understand what the vaccines were about and then apply a holistic brush over it and say, well, you know, you choose what is best for you and, you know, because people were being pressured to get the vaccines and it’s something that should really help you to continue working. You know, doctors had to, naturopaths had to keep their clinics open, but some of them refused. Yes. So I’m not going to practise for a year or two and everyone made that choice and so,

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:24:37] Yes.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:24:38] I respect everyone’s choices and what they wanted to do. But for the people that feel like they had to get the vaccine as a livelihood, then, you know, the discussion went onto what we could do as holistic practitioners to help support the body through the vaccine process. 

And we had to try to unravel what the vaccine was and understand it and then what it could potentially do to a human. And, you know, I spent a lot of time researching it and, you know, I knew that I ran the potential of getting in so much trouble with some of the authorities. But I thought it was important and important enough to have my big mouth. And I made sure pretty much every word I said had a, you know, scientific reference attached to it.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:25:25] Yes. 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:25:26] So going to trouble. But anyway.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:25:28] So yeah, But so just remind us because this word vaccine has been used as though and, you know, vaccines have been around for 50, 60 more, more years than that. And they’ve been traditional in a very particular way. But this loaded that whether you were talking about the Pfizer, the Moderna or even the AstraZeneca was different.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:25:56] Yeah.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:25:57] Talk to us about that difference.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:25:58] Yeah, sure. So the traditional vaccine is the one that you get given to children. And these things are usually a dead or fairly almost dead virus or bacteria that are used. So they take a virus, they kill it or half killer in a lab and so it’s significantly weakened. And then they injected into you and your immune system can overcome it and build a response. 

So I think that’s you know, it’s interesting because what’s happening is that you’re using a whole vaccine, a whole virus, and the immune system will respond to various aspects of a virus. So a virus has multiple proteins and multiple sugar units in it, like all cells. So the body mounts a response, whether it’s B cells or T cells to various aspects. So you develop a long-term immunity to a lot of the different vaccines. 

These RNA and mRNA vaccines and DNA vaccines were quite different so and they’re not they weren’t especially new. They were experimented with in 1978 as when they first started to come to there because they were looking at mRNA vaccines in oncology and trying to work out vaccines for cancer. But those projects were dropped because there was some concerns about safety. 

So that being what it is, they were redeveloped when COVID came out and they are not, so they’re not like a traditional vaccine but they what they do is what they did was they took some mRNA, for example, which is when you have DNA, you need RNA to help replicate to make more DNA. So you took a bit of RNA, you injected into somebody’s cells and that RNA started to instruct the DNA to produce more proteins. Well, actually, just one specific protein, a spike protein. So the spike protein was on the outside of the Coronavirus, but it didn’t have any of the other proteins. 

So, you know, as a little sideway, all those drug companies are trying to rush to find a way to include other proteins into their vaccine. So you get a broader immune response. That’s what they’re trying to do right now because what happened today, you produce the spike protein, but you get an antibody response, but it doesn’t trigger other aspects, particularly of the immune response for any length of time. 

So, you know, that’s why we find ourselves having, you know, more boosters and there’ll be more boosters because, you know, the immune response wanes. And that’s the difference. So you’re getting the body to make the spike proteins rather than injecting a half-dead virus. 

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:29:14] Hmm. Yeah. It’s kind of the old vaccine was taking a more holistic view of the pathogen, wasn’t it? It was saying here is a pathogen which you mentioned T and B cells. And I’m guessing I mean, not guessing. They are an important part of the immune function and they need to have the memory of that immune response. And that’s what gives vaccinations. They’re their thing. But here we actually did two different things. One was getting into the human cell, which we hadn’t done before, and produce a spike protein.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:29:47] Yes.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:29:47] Two, which the body mounted supposedly mounts an immune response, but it doesn’t last very long. 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:29:53] With that, because it’s producing a response to one protein, not a group of proteins.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:30:00] Yes. 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:30:01] And so, you know, whereas as the coronavirus mutates, you know, those spike proteins change. So, you know, they can bend or the place even on clever variants, the placement of specific amines changes position of the antibody comes along, goes, oh, look at that spike protein. Well, hang on a second no, it’s not, and leave it alone and so–interesting. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:30:33] Where, whereas and there was a major breakthrough in Australian medicine, Daniel, since we spoke last week, and that was that they’ve now recognised that natural immunity is the thing we have. I had actually lost faith in natural immunity I thought it had been phased out of health care completely, but people who have been infected by the whole coronavirus with all its component parts.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:31:06] Yes.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:31:08] To your point, have mounted an immune response to that and to all of the complexities of that.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:31:15] That’s right.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:31:16] I’ve never heard it quite put as nicely as that, Daniel. I really–that. That is really that’s a really important point that you’ve made there. I really think that’s an important point. 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:31:25] So the other missing part of that puzzle is, is, okay, so we’ve accepted that we can mount an immune response to the whole virus and the part we really should be discussing, which we like and want to discuss in holistic medicine, is how do we support the body, build a better and sustained response. 

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:31:32] Yes. 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:31:33] And that’s the critical part for me that’s missing. So, you know, we both know some doctors and professors that have, you know, written many, many letters to our bureaucrats and senior medical advisers about vitamin D’s and Zincs and vitamin C’s and the importance of croissants and my favourite is nigella sativa. Looks like Sade and all these substances which have got good evidence behind them, particularly vitamin D, and they just get ignored. So, you know, I prefer of earlier conversation, stay on Sun, which gives you vitamin D

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:32:32] Stay indoors, don’t go outside. So it’s creating the perfect storm. And it has created the perfect storm. 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:32:41] Absolutely, it has. So, you know, I really wish that. And I think one of the big failings of natural, holistic medicine is that we are generally pretty pathetic at politicking and peering because we just don’t seem to find a way in to convince our leaders and never really have. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:33:06] Well well, it’s an interesting one, Daniel, because I know you’ve been involved in the compliment. Well, the holistic medicine field of supplementation, because I know you’ve been involved in that for many, many years and, you know. Talk to us a little bit about what it takes to get supplements through in Australia I mean, Australia you’ve dealt with the TGA many times, I’m sure, tell us about that process.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:33:34] Well, look, I owned a company which produced vitamins, which I don’t anymore, and I, I was around when the TGA first came in, in 1989, and, and we, it scared the shit out of us –oops I don’t say that sorry, concept. 

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:33:52] you pushing it, you pushing it

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:33:55] But it, you know, because it brought a paradigm of structure to the production and manufacture of natural medicines that we’d never seen anywhere in the world. And it brought anxiety, as you can imagine, people, to rethink how things were made. But, you know, in with the benefit of hindsight, it is fantastic and it’s particularly fantastic for our patients because I have patients in Australia. If you get an Australian-made supplement, know that what is on the labels on the bottle is in the bottle.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:34:29] Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:34:30] And that’s really important you know, it’s it people are spending good money on these things and we want them to work and they need to work. So, you know, when you produce a supplement in Australia, it has to get some rudimentary evidence to present, to support it. 

You have to do stability trials and it’s checked all the way through the raw material is analysed, the encapsulation during the process it’s analysed and then we do chemical analysis of the supplements every three months or six months or twelve months depending on on the supplements and what the needs are. So the guidelines are phenomenal and really a kin to producing a pharmaceutical drug if you get something from Australia. So it’s not, it’s really good.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:35:20] Yeah. So coming back to I’m just intrigued. You said something there, you know, we are as holistic practitioners, just not very good at the politics of it. I think there’s another aspect to it. I know the pharmaceutical industry is worth about $1.2 trillion a year.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:35:39] Yup.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:35:39] And, I’m not sure what the supplement or, you know, the complementary industries worth, but I imagine not even close to that.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:35:50] Ah well it is, around about five and a half billion dollars a year.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:35:56] Billion that’s right. But I repeat, 1.2 trillion is a lot more than 5 billion.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:36:03] But even in that billion, it’s a little bit deceptive because I think included things like massage therapies

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:36:10] right, right right

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:36:11] And other.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:36:13] So the influence of the supplement industry is kind of I mean when we consider that the pharmaceutical industry on the average gets fined about three or $4 billion a year, which I think for the pharmaceutical industry would probably be considered petty cash.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:36:32] Yes.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:36:33] Or an inconvenient marketing expense. You know, when you talk about farms of supplement industry of $5 billion a year, I think it’s not hard to see why we are, in your words, crap at the politics, because we just don’t they don’t have the influence.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:36:51] No, we don’t have the influence. And we you know, we don’t have the engagements. You know, the drug companies work by engaging with very expensive PR companies. So and we see the influence of that in their everyday lives. So, you know, there’s not that many journalists around anymore. 

And so what it is, is big pharma paying PR companies to send articles to newspapers, and the journalists put their name on that and it gets published. So, you know, the influence is significant. And it varies the amount of money involved is just quite difficult to break through that.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:37:31] There’s you know, we use the term holistic has been bastardized and you know, hijacked by various interests. I think another term that’s been bastardized is evidence-based medicine. You know, I think there was an article recently in the BMJ, the British Medical Journal. We did a podcast on it, The Illusion of evidence-based medicine. Evidence-based medicine isn’t everything it’s cracked up to be, isn’t it?

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:37:57] No, it’s not and there are many aspects to that and one of the interesting aspects that I’ve noted through the journals of the last few years is a this is quite interesting. I thought this is concern about using mice models because as you know, many, many drugs are tested on mice and they’ve only started to realise that if you get mice from different laboratories, they fit different nutrition in different laboratories and so if one mice has got more vitamin D or minor and it will react differently with the drug. 

The age of the mouse is coming into play because as you age, you atrophy and we all do. So our various organs get harder or don’t work as well. So if you if you got your first batch in early on, young, young mice and you get a response from the drug and the second batch comes from a natural followed mouse, you get a different response. So it’s quite difficult to you know, to do the calculations on that. And then the other part to that is in a high percentage of pharmaceutical drugs, the studies are not reproducible.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:39:11] That, that actually I’ve just read, I’ve just read the science there and in science in the science of medicine.

Dr Daniel Baden: [00:39:19] Yes.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:39:19] 85%.

Dr Daniel Baden: [00:39:21] Yes.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:39:22] Of articles in evidence-based medicine are not reproduced.

Dr Daniel Baden: [00:39:26] Not reproducible.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:39:26] So that’s quite that’s quite sobering.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:39:29] It’s terrifying. It is. And, you know, I guess there are many reasons, but one of the reasons is and we saw this with the mRNA vaccines is the people that they initially tested these on and the study sample was something like 83% want people of over 50 and you only had 1% black people, 1% Chinese people, 1% whatever, younger people. So you were giving a very flawed model of broad humanity. 

So it’s extremely concerning when we saying, well, let’s give these vaccines to kids who are five years old now because those massive studies didn’t include kids. They didn’t include pregnant women and so how do we hand on heart justify using some of these drugs or vaccines where those models haven’t been used? And that may cause different reactions in different societies and different groups. You know, there’s just it’s just a little bit dodgy. And the first coronaviruses were discovered 20 to 30000 years ago. In they found them in the teeth viruses in the teeth actually of mummified people they’d found.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:40:52] Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:40:53] Most of them came from Asia and they and I could they believe that causes groups of people that came from those Asian countries to have a different response to the coronavirus than we who weren’t exposed 20,000 years ago. These things carry through, though, you know, how do you study for that? I don’t know. But, yes, it’s interesting.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:41:15] It’s kind of sobering that I spoke to a PD, a professor of pediatrics, who is very senior in public health policy. When I asked him, how how do you justify giving five-year-olds because my granddaughter is six and there was no way I was going to suggest that she have that. How do you justify giving that without the evidence? And his response was, how will we know it’s safe if we don’t use it?

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:41:43] Yeah.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:41:44] That’s, that took my breath away. And once I picked myself up from the floor in apoplexy, I could barely contain myself.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:41:56] You know, the one of the worrying things around that is, you know, when we were sold mRNA vaccines, we were told that the amount would just break up would dissolve and that would be, you know, you wouldn’t have any knock-on effect. But you wanted the latest genetics journals that came out earlier this year. They could like they could prove that human liver cells actually changed the DNA permanently after being exposed to the amount of mRNA vaccine, which in their more studies following on from that. So that’s kind of scary. We’re actually changing the blueprint of humans.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:42:37] Yeah. The interesting thing about the rejection of things like vitamin D and zinc and all of that was the importance of emergency use authorisation, wasn’t it? I mean, that was a very big part of rejecting things like Ivermectin or vitamin D or zinc, because if you had and if you had an effective treatment for a condition, then you couldn’t rush these new vaccines through with emergency use authorisation.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:43:08] Yeah, look at that. I’m sorry. That’s a bit above my pay grade.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:43:12] Okay.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:43:13] That’s right. But I would encourage your listeners, you know, there’s a fantastic website called Our World in Data. And, you know, you can go in there and manipulate your own studies. And by that, I mean that the data is all there. But you can look at India versus Australia versus the US and India before they had vaccines of using ivermectin and vitamins and you could then bring in a template asking for what the death rates and all that stuff.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:43:43] Yeah,

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:43:43] It’s fascinating.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:43:44] But our world in data, our world in data, yeah, we should have a link to that. Now I know that you’ve also lectured a lot on, on oncology and on cancer. And you know, what role does naturopathy, homeopathy have in oncology?

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:44:04] Yeah. Look, it’s personaly so we, you know, one, I just like to keep myself out of jail and send experts and treat cancer. We just support patients with cancer.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:44:14] Okay, good. Noted the note.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:44:17] Yeah, but you know we mentioned earlier that the World Health Organisation, its identify that 30 to 90% of all cancers have a foundation in diet and lifestyle, and that is something which tricks up our readers as holistic practitioners and that goes to, you know, the chemicals that we’re exposed to viruses and alcohol consumption and cigarette consumption, exercise, diet, you know, cancer is driven by excessive energy consumption. 

So if you’ve got a rich sugar diet and you’re not doing much to get it out of your system, you know, there’s a much higher risk. This is all published data, just simply science-based, will published and known and always has been. You know, your chances of developing cancer are significantly increased. So the other, you know, areas I guess we look at is looking at the whole person and trying to look at those factors. So there’s a concept, you know, the word immunosenescence?

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:45:24] I don’t know I’m not familiar with that.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:45:26] So immunosenescence describes basically the aging of the immune system. So I think it literally means, you know, senility of the immune system. So we as we get older, all of our immune system starts at some point in our life going to some form of decrease. And if you’ve lived a fairly healthy lifestyle and looked after yourself. You know, it might be the eighties, nineties, maybe 100. 

You start to significantly not be able to fight viruses and infections as much as you used to. But you can short-circuit that. You can you can kill off your immune system faster through eating lots of sugar. Living a crappy lifestyle, being obese, and having ongoing inflammation issues and these sorts of things. 

Chronic infection now that, you know, as a holistic dentist, having a chronic infection in your tooth, even if it’s not felt can certainly, you know, increase heart disease and create chronic inflammation throughout the body as your body’s constantly trying to deal with that, you know? 

So, you know, that is something that we would look at with the patients because we know that in an immunosenescent individual, their ability to fight disease is significantly diminished. Their dendritic cell activity drops significantly there in case cell activity drops significantly and that’s been measured.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:47:02] NK being natural killer cells 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:47:05] Yep, yep, yep and so their ability to use natural killer cells are probably the most important ceiling in my view that it comes to when dealing with cancer, particularly secondaries and metastases. So I once brought out a professor of oncology from Switzerland and Ben Phifer his name is you could look it up. Fascinating man and he did some research and presented it. And when he first presented this, he got laughed off stage. 

And two years later, they said come back please, you know, he demonstrated that when you get a biopsy for prostate cancer, you’re actually rupturing an encapsulated usually tumor and he said, but when you do that, you’re releasing up to 20 million cancer cells into the bloodstream. And so you want to make sure that the patient can deal with all these free-floating old cancer cells in the bloodstream. Every time you do a biopsy and he demonstrated that the most effective way of doing that was to use to build up and case cells. Natural killer cells.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:48:28] Mm hmm. 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:48:29] And there are some good, you know, natural substances available to help do that. We use the ribosome, the ribonicesaline compound and there’s some good research behind that, product. But there are a number of other substances you can use. So that’s you know, those indications become very, very important and so, you know, you’ve got to try to assess where that person’s immune system is as part of the consultation. Yeah. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:49:05] Mm hmm. Gosh, you making. You made me feel weak then, because I did get a diagnosis of prostate cancer about six, seven years ago, and I did–.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:49:14] Autobiopsy?

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:49:15] And I was very focussed on trying to the support my immune function as much as I could through that process and afterward.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:49:24] Yes.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:49:25] You know, that that is people say, oh if you’re on a good diet, you don’t need supplements. Well, I’d like to know who is on a good diet. Yeah, who’s been whose food has been grown in good soils? 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:49:40] Yes. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:49:40] So I guess they are part of I know Ross Walker, we have Ross on regularly, you know, once a year with our heart specialists and Ross says, I know people say, oh, it’s just expensive urine, but I also like having expensive blood as well.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:49:56] Yeah, yeah. Look, I find that quite funny because once we were looking at writing an article called The Cost of Urine and we were trying to compare some of the drugs to some of the vitamins, a bit more would have been quite interesting. But look, I think a lot of people benefit from vitamins overall. Not everyone needs them to the same degree and that’s part of the consultation. 

So there are people out there that do have exceptional diet and lifestyle and attitude. And as importantly to me as a holistic practitioner are also spiritually aware. So they’re connected to other human beings. They are able to give and accept love. And that is just so critical to who we are. You know, so so I think it’s you look at those people, they probably don’t need vitamins as much as somebody that’s living a really ordinary lifestyle in terms of their diet and how much sort of food they eat, their mental health, these sorts of issues. 

So I think there are some baseline supplements that most people will benefit from antioxidants and maybe fish oil to help reduce inflammation and one thing I’d just like to say to people overall in everything that I do in life, but especially supplements, is just choose quality. You know, if you’re going to eat meat, just choose quality meat. 

If you’re going to eat vegetables, just choose quality. You’re better off having less, but having quality and the same with supplements, you know, I don’t know, I, I know because we used to do a lot of stability trials and comparative analysis and that with fish holds, for example, you can get some pretty dodgy fish oils out there. So my recommendation is never buy anything, have a discount basket.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:51:48] Yeah, yeah. 

Dr Daniel Baden: [00:51:49] Yeah. 

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:51:51] Fish oils is an interesting one, isn’t it? Because I’m guessing. Well, they come from fish clearly, and fish are not swimming around in the most in the cleanest of environments. How does it how does a manufacturer of, say, fish oil deal with those impurities? I mean, can you get everything out? Can you get mercury in and plastics out to ensure purity? 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:52:13] Well, what? So the most important thing is to choose where the fish come from. So, you know. Fisher we used to produce came from Norway and we and then it tested significantly. And that’s part of the TGI process. We need to prove that there was no mercury, no lead, no PCBs, etc. and that’s all pretty much standard in Australian supplements. 

The one thing that’s really important is that it doesn’t oxidize. So every now and again bite into a fish capsule, just make sure it just doesn’t taste disgustingly fishy because it’s oxidized and it’s going to be much worse for you or create more inflammation. So that’s what I mean when I say quality. You just want to make sure that using a good brand that’s got good long-term stability behind it. And you’ll see that on the use-by date. 

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:53:12] Hmm. It’s interesting. I think it’s worth saying that I was looking at the deaths of various substances on the TGA site from 1971. Just a lot bit of reading catch up on the spare time. But I did happen to look at it, you know, the deaths from various things from 1971 to the present day. And I and I think there are several thousand deaths a year from prescription medication. 

But as far as I could tell, no one had died from a multivitamin or mineral and only one person and it’s interesting, you should choose fish oil one person did die from a fish oil capsule they choked on it, it was too big, it was big they are big they often big. But it is sobering to know that, isn’t it, that it’s actually quite safe. But it’s important for you to be specific about what you take rather than a shotgun approach. 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:54:09] Yeah, absolutely. And with oncology, there were specific herbs and supplements that you can use together with pharmaceuticals to get better effects So, you know, and that’s something that we would look at on a case-by-case basis, depending on the type of cancer, for example, the most common pancreatic cancer drug is gemcitabine. And gemcitabine will prolong a person’s life by about 70 days. But when we use that with curcumin and a high-quality curcumin, you can prolong someone’s life in this particular study up to 161 days.

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:54:49] Wow. 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:54:49] Now, you know, that’s an early start. That’s one of the first studies of its kind, but it just demonstrates the effects that they have. There’s another study on green tea where they looked at using green tea with doxycycline and found that it increased its effect two and a half fold. So it’s absolutely amazing what herbs and nutrients can do by themselves or together with the drugs and I like the idea if a patient is going to go through chemo and most people will if I’ve got cancer, I like the idea of using herbs together with them and antioxidants because it demonstrates that to me. 

So to me, it allows better efficacy with reduced potential for side effects because many of the chemo drugs downregulate very quickly. And that means that you know, you have two or three rounds and they don’t work as well cause you have quite specific systems within every cell that spit the drug out faster. And, so every drug they spit it out faster. So they’ve got to give you a bigger dose. So the benefit of using herbs may be less side effects down the track, I think as well. So that would be the way of the future, I would hope. 

Dr Ron Ehrlich: [00:56:20] Yes. Yes. Well, you know, one would hope so, too, Daniel. We’ve covered some territory here today. I wonder if we might just finish up. I want to take a step back from your role in the holistic medicine field, in Naturopathy, Homeopathy, etc. because we’re all on a health journey together in this modern world as individuals and I wondered if you might think about what do you think the biggest challenge is for us as individuals on that journey? 

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:56:51] Oh, look, I think the biggest challenge, you know when you take into account that a lot of the things that we’re exposed to in our kids are exposed to social media and the way the world’s going with what are they call when you can’t the cancel culture all of these things to me it’s kind of sad because it just means we’re not communicating, connecting well. In a recent study, I saw that 39% of people felt lonely even if they were married. And then all it means is that we’re not listening to each other. We’re not respecting each other’s opinion. 

And I know that is a very psychological approach, but it impacts your physical health as well, no doubt about it. So for me, it’s really important that we just show each other respect, no matter what you do. You know, I respect medicine and I think there are better ways of doing things. And I would hope that some of them would respect us as holistic practitioners and that’s the way we move forward as human beings. We listen to each other and we just reflect and respond. And I just think that’s probably this is the most important thing.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:58:04] Well, Daniel, thank you so much for connecting with us today and sharing no, I mean that sincerely. And thank you for sharing your knowledge and your wisdom with us. Thank you.

Dr. Daniel Baden: [00:58:14] Thanks for the opportunity. Thank you.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [00:58:16] Well, connection, I mean, if we needed to be reminded of how important that is, just connecting with other human beings face to face, enjoying each other’s company, being able to shake hands, look at people’s faces and body language not be concerned with whether our line is going to drop off, whether the zoom is going to be a good signal or not, just enjoying the fact that we’re with other human beings. 

I mean, it’s what has made us great as a species, our ability to collaborate and cooperate and to be creative and talk and be with each other, and I love the fact that Daniel keeps coming back to the holistic health approach, you know, the holistic practitioner, because ultimately that is the way the body works and it’s the way the planet works. And many people feel uncomfortable with that. It’s surprising to me, actually, I sometimes shake my head at people’s skepticism of holistic and perhaps in the same way that the word evidence-based medicine has been hijacked and you could justifiably roll your eyes at that term. 

The word holistic has perhaps also been hijacked in some instances. But the fact still remains that when you stand in front of the mirror and you look at yourself, there’s a whole lot going on there that is far more than just individual specialties all packaged up into a human body. It is actually a whole person, and that holistic approach needs to be taken. And I loved also Daniels, I’d never really thought of it that way, but when the previous vaccines had been given, which were attenuated or deactivated viruses, you know, the whole virus, with all its complexities, were there for the body to mount an immune response with B cells and T cells, which are also very which are very important part of the immune system. 

Whereas a spike protein is very specific and it’s probably one of the not no doubt. Probably it is the reason why when you get a vaccine of these mRNA and vaccines, the efficacy goes from the first dose first to doses in six months. And then by the time you get a booster, I think the efficacy is down to three months. And then when you get your fourth dose, the second booster, you’re down to about 10 to 12 weeks. And the question is, how often would you be comfortable having these boosters? 

Well, natural immunity, as has been outlined, is a real thing, and thank God for that I’ve never doubted it. But if you were listening to our public health s so-called public health experts, you know, you would have been forgiven for thinking that it was redundant and that the mRNA and vaccines had trumped and I use that term very purposefully had been trumped by natural immunity, been trumped by this wonderful new technology. Well, apparently not so. 

Anyway, Daniel, it was great to talk to Daniel and as I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, Daniel has lectured to health practitioners for many, many years and most recently gave two webinar series to health practitioners not open to the public. And over 20,000 practitioners felt that Daniel’s message was important enough to listen to, and I was very happy to share him with you.

Dr. Ron Ehrlich: [01:02:03] I hope this finds you well, until next time. This is Dr Ron Ehrlich. 

This podcast provides general information and discussion about medicine, health, and related subjects. The content is not intended and should not be construed as medical advice or as a substitute for care by a qualified medical practitioner. If you or any other person. Has a medical concern. He or she should consult with an appropriately qualified medical practitioner. Guests who speak in this podcast express their own opinions, experiences, and conclusions.