Dr. Bruce Lipton joins me to discuss epigenetics and the subconscious mind. This is an incredible episode and one that is so interesting, powerful and multi-faceted that it’s hard, to sum up. There are so many stories and lessons to be taken from it, as Bruce says “our mental and spiritual character is being shaped by the nervous system to express reality. And if we change our mental and spiritual character.. how we handle it… then we change our lives”. What an empowering and wonderful thought.
Selected Links from the Episode
- Dr. Bruce Lipton website
- Dr. Bruce Lipton books
- Unstress episode with Dr. Suzy Green on The Power of Positive Thought
- Unstress episode with Dr. Shankardev Saraswati on Mind-Body Connection
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: Hello and welcome to “Unstress”. I’m Dr. Ron Ehrlich. My guest today is the legendary Dr. Bruce Lipton. Bruce’s background is cell biology, he has a Ph.D. in cell biology. Appropriate in many ways as they are the building blocks of nature and as a starting point it’s a good place to begin. Bruce has written many books his 2003 book – The Biology of Belief is one which I would definitely include on my must-read books. What I loved about it is his explanation of the emerging and empowering science of epigenetics.
That is your thoughts… Here’s an example of what we’re talking about. Your thoughts are things. They are actual proteins called neurotransmitters, serotonin, dopamine, adrenaline which attach to cell membranes and cause your genes to express themselves. And that expression, that gene expression is inheritable over the next few generations. So, you are not a victim of your genes, you have some control over how they are expressed. And the same… And I only I personally found that enlightening and empowering and for me, it was just profound, and I wanted to share this with you. And really the same is true for nutrients and environmental toxins but that’s the subject for another podcast.
When I was in high school I didn’t really like physics and when the subject of quantum physics came up… Well, I was lost. But another thing I love about Bruce Lipton is he explains the relevance to us on a daily basis of Newtonian and quantum physics. That’s a big call but it’s also empowering.
In this episode, we cover history from French philosopher and mathematician Rene Descartes to Isaac Newton and on to Albert Einstein. We talk about matter and energy, we talk about material mechanical and physical world that we see and the other world energy spirit and mind which we don’t see always. We talk about the conscious and the unconscious mind. If you think seeing is believing you may want to rethink that one. We cover so much territory here and Bruce is a powerhouse, so knowledgeable, so passionate, so empowering. So, listen carefully you may want to listen to it again. I hope you enjoy this conversation I had with Bruce Lipton.
Welcome to the show Bruce.
Dr. Bruce Lipton: Ron, thank you so very much for this opportunity. I’m so excited to be here and talk with you and especially your audience. We know there’s a chaos in the world and it seems like everything’s going crazy but underneath there’s an event that’s happening and we’re going through an evolution. And so, your audience really represents what I call the cultural creatives. They’re looking for answers outside the box because to get through this period of time the conventional answers are failing us and there’s a new world, a new science and I’m so excited to be here with you to discuss it.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: Thank you so much. And I know before we came on we were just reflecting on the state of the world at the moment and I think we both agreed that engagement, getting involved taking control, being part of the solution rather than reflecting just on all the problems is a really key important point. And to that effect you know you have been a great source of inspiration I know to me and also many people.
I wanted to cover a few things here because you talk and write about so many things and we’re going to have links to all of those later, but you know, people take we seem to be taking a very mechanistic view of things health-wise certainly. You know, the body’s compartmentalised into all these specialties and we seem to be taking a very compartmentalised view of the world. Can you reflect on how we got to that point and how we might move on?
Dr. Bruce Lipton: Yeah, it’s actually an ancient history in our sense of time right now. It goes back to the 1700s late 16-1700s and this is a time when the church was running civilisation and the belief, of course, was that God and spirit, these invisible forces were controlling life. And at the time anybody who thought different than that would go through the Inquisition which was a kangaroo court for you Aussies in a sense that if you got convicted of being a heretic there was no way you were going to escape punishment and they punished anybody who thought outside the box. Well, this is really difficult for scientists because as soon as they found something that didn’t agree with what the Bible said they were by definition heretics.
So, science was really repressed but Isaac Newton came up with an understanding of the universe which simply represented this. It said actually let’s go about a hundred years before Newton and we have Rene Descartes and he comes up with a concept of a mind-body and so that becomes part of our intellectual thinking, there’s a mind and there’s a body. But he’s also interesting point was at the time of who was alive that’s when they invented mechanical clocks. And the concept of all these gears turning and telling time really reflected on him when he looked up at the heavens above and he said you know, you can tell time by the movements of these planets and these stars. So, he’s like to him all of a sudden, the idea that the universe is a mechanism was very appealing. He looked at he said so it’s mechanical.
Well, you know, this is obviously not in the tradition of the church which is everything is spiritual, and he was looking at mechanical. But there was nobody to follow it until Newton about a hundred years later who started to consider the idea that the planets and things moving around were indeed an expression of mechanics. And so, what was really interesting is to understand the nature of these movements, and nobody really recognised this before he could do anything in the world of physics, the first thing he developed, and people I said don’t even recognise it, is calculus.
He had to create the mathematics of calculus in order to talk to you know measure the movements of the different planets in the sky. And he creates calculus and then he puts the data in about the planets that he could observe. How big the planet is, how fast it’s moving and the arc that it’s moving in and he put these physical parameters into his equation and he was able to predict the movements of the planets and the stars. In fact, like it was a clock and it’s a mechanism. And what was very important about Newton is that he didn’t put God or spirit into his equation, it’s just mechanical stuff.
So, at that point, it became a concept that the physical world in which we live and the planets and all the things and us and everything material was part of a mechanical, material, physical world and it was separate from an invisible world. And he said okay there’s an invisible world and there’s a mechanical world, well, we can observe and work with a mechanical world, the invisible world we have nothing to do with it.
And so, this is the first separation of what you call physics from metaphysics. Physics said we study the physical body, metaphysics, is we study the energy and all that. So, that separation allowed science to operate independently of the church because I said oh spirit and God know that we don’t deal with that, that that’s for God and church. And they left that alone including “mind” which was part of that invisible stuff, minds invisible. And they put that all aside and said it’s not part of our science because it’s not, it’s not mechanical, it’s not physical, its energy and we don’t need to have energy in the equation because we can see how the universe moves without energy in the equation.
So, there was a separation of the universe into two realms matter and energy. Anything made out of matter would only be affected by other forms of matter. And energy could affect energy but there was nobody or matter or energy connection at all. So, the first part of science took out all energy and invisible forces and including spirit out of the equation saying it’s not relevant. And medicine then tried to understand the nature of the human body only looking at it as a mechanical machine made out of physical parts and if there’s something wrong with it you can adjust the parts, chemicals, drugs and fix the machine.
So, we took energy totally out of the equation as not being relevant. It’s not being which of course includes mind and consciousness. And so, we come into a world of the world that we are creating today which is based on that science which is actually referred to as “scientific materialism”. Meaning the science of the physical mechanical universe which is separate of course from the energy. So, trying to understand the body means that you don’t need to bring in God, spirit, mind, and consciousness, you just need to understand the physical chemicals.
Well, of course, this was a separation of a universe into two realms but in 1925 physics had changed its belief system. Up to about 1895, the mechanical vision of the Newtonian world said atoms. And the name atom came from the Greek word uncuttable. Atom, uncuttable meant the smallest particle in the universe so they recognised it was these little particles like sand grains that are very small called atoms and there were different kinds of atoms and when you assemble them like a recipe you can make a cake or a pie depending on how you assemble these atoms.
They said that’s how the universe is created, atoms are assembled into all these different arrangements that we see. And yet what happened was in 1895 science found out there was something inside the atom. So, it wasn’t the smallest thing, there was something inside. They found electrons protons and neutrons. These small particles. Okay, the atom is now made like a little solar system with the nucleus of protons and neutrons and electrons like planets flying all around. And that was the vision of the atom that they created.
And then by around 1910-1920 for sure they also found out well, what are those particles made out? What’s a proton made out of? What’s a neutron made out of? And they had the opportunity to go smaller. And then the biggest surprise was as they went into the particle and went deeper they found there was no matter inside the particle. It was energy. There was nothing physical, it is the appearance of physicality that an atom is made out of energy units and that these energy units are like well like, let’s say cyclone or tornado spinning forces, very forces and that the atom had no structure inside.
It was only our illusion or perception of it as being physical that we see physicality in that sense. And it’s interesting because Einstein when he wrote he said ‘matter is an illusion’, like a permanent illusion in the sense that he actually caused it persistent… Matter is a persistent illusion, the belief that we that world is made out of matter and you say well, wait, look at wherever you are right now you’re sitting down or standing up you’re in a building, there are trees and things all around you and you go wow, look at all these physical things and I go the illusion and I go here’s what the illusion is all about. The atoms are like tornadoes, they’re force fields, they’re nothing physical in them.
They’re just like energy winds and they create pressure, okay? But they also create an energy field and I say why is it relevant? Because when the light is on when there’s light the photons of light which are little particles of light bounce off the surface of what we perceive as matter. So, that the energy that the matter is made out of is you can’t see the energy what you see are the photons of light bouncing back. So, in other words you can’t see anybody when it’s dark because there are no photons and when there are photons all you’re seeing is a reflection of the photons from the light source coming back to your eye. But under that veneer of photons, there’s no physical structure.
So, everything you see is a reflection of light bouncing back. It’s an illusion of light that is creating the appearance of matter but underneath that light, there’s nothing physical. And then people go ok, wait, there’s nothing physical but even in the dark I could feel you in the dark I can touch things so there must be something physical because it’s in the dark I could feel it. And then I go well here’s the point if there’s a tornado and you try to push your way through a tornado the fact is that well that’d be silly… a tornado picks up houses and cars and throws them up in the air, there’s a force. I say why is it irrelevant? If the force pushes against you, it feels solid. If you can push against the force it feels softer.
So, basically everything that we feel that is hard, the wall, the trees you know physical things, they’re hard because the little tornado force fields that make up the atoms are so powerful like tornadoes that you can’t push through them, they push back. And so, again what’s the point? We created an illusion that there’s a physical world and an energy world. And in the beginning, we said they don’t even interact with each other.
Then we find out in quantum physics, and that’s where the new physics came from, they said to wait it’s not matter at all, it’s all energy. And the relevance about that then makes something very important. Matter… If pieces are made out of matter I can separate A from B and say look at piece A and separate it from piece B. I go that that’s true, that’s the illusion of that. And I go the illusion because the atoms are energy fields and energy fields don’t have any borders to them.
So, wherever you’re sitting right now there are cell phone broadcast, radio broadcast, TV broadcasts this if you’re on the computer broadcast coming into the room right now and all of it is energy, it’s like you can’t separate them. And I say well why is irrelevant? Well, everything that is it has the appearance of the matter is energy and by definition, it’s connected to everything else that’s energy. And so, we’re in a matrix of energy and this becomes profoundly important because there’s an illusion of separation but we’re not nothing is really separated because everything is an energy field. It is like a giant lake and the rain is pouring down and the ripples are spreading all over the lake but the point is each ripple sap is derived from a raindrop hitting the water but if you look at the lake, the ripples are all merging with each other connected.
The whole point is the energy reveals wholeness and that is so profoundly different than Newtonian fix you know, physics which represents a duality of two non-interacting structures. We find everything is always interacting, everything is from one, everything is energy and it’s invisible. And you say I can see the physical stuff and I say yeah but you know what you radiate energy and you can see it with certain kinds of microscopy. Like all the new energy scans like CAT scans, MRI scans, PET scans, these high-tech energy scans what they use for medicine. They’re not cameras to take pictures of things, they read energy fields. So, they look at the body and by looking at the energy fields can determine the characteristics of cancer versus a normal body cell because they have different energies.
So, all of a sudden I said guess what? Medicine, which was so fixated on the physical body as a machine made out of chemicals and genes and all that is now using a technology that says I can read the body’s functions, not through the matter but by reading energy scans of the body. And I go yeah, the energy is the core of what we are.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: It’s in its interesting Bruce, isn’t it? That we have accepted energy as a physical reality arouses it as you say all the time and we’re surrounded by it with phones, our TVs, everything we do we’re accepting energy. But philosophically this is part of the problem, isn’t it? That philosophically we’re still caught in this Newtonian you know, seeing is believing, touching you know, there and that’s part of the problem we’re almost there, we’re almost there because we’ve accepted it on so many different levels but philosophically we haven’t as a country, as individuals. A lot of individuals have obviously those that have been listening to you for many years have but you know we haven’t quite got there as a nation, as a community, as a world.
Dr. Bruce Lipton: It is a very difficult as Einstein said it matter all matter is an illusion, all being a persistent illusion. The problem is if we stay in the illusion then we see ourselves as individuals separate from each other with all the different physical things in our world separate from each other that we’re just a piece in a machine. And what that does is that it devalues who we are, that we are actually not just a piece of machine. Our energy is spreading out through the universe so each one of us is a unique vibrational tuning fork.
There are no two people with the same vibration, each one of us is broadcasting a vibrational frequency. And well, I say we’ll wait if the matter is made out of energy in frequency and we broadcast frequency then that means we can influence matter. And now here comes like the most important point and yet one of the hardest as you just mentioned Ron, the hardest to accept and that is this – Quantum physics acknowledges as a fact and let me emphasise about quantum physics. It is the most valid truthful science on the planet.
There is no science with more validity in its understanding of the universe than quantum physics. So, if you’re going to question a science you can question everyone, but quantum physics is the primo what’s happening universe picture. I say why is it relevant? And the answer is this and as I said the matter is an illusion of energy.
And quantum physicists and I am going to emphasise it again since 1925-1930 have told us that… one of the quotes is from one of the early physicists that we’ve been used to looking at the universe as a giant machine but in truth, it’s more like a giant thought. That consciousness, the energy of our consciousness is forming the energy of the world in which we live. And it’s like wait a minute, it says we are creating through consciousness, the world experience that you’re having right now, this is a fact of physics.
In fact, there’s a quote I use in my lectures and one of the slides and it’s from an article in the journal Nature. So, let me tell you Nature is one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world. So, it’s science pure. And there was an article from a physicist at in the U.S. at Johns Hopkins University, a quantum physicist, and the article was about the nature of that then there’s energy, it’s not matter, its energy and I show on the on the slide the final sentence of this paper in the scientific journal from quantum physics and the sentence says this “The universe is immaterial. It’s mental and spiritual. Live and enjoy”.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: And say it again. Say it again. Go and give it to us again. The universe is…
Dr. Bruce Lipton: “The universe’s immaterial, not physical. The universe is immaterial, it’s mental and spiritual. Live and enjoy.” And what has come down to the truth of the world from whether the biology I talked about is how our consciousness shapes our physical biology and our behaviour and physics takes it even further because it says the whole expression of this universe is coming from consciousness.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: Well, yeah, Bruce this is a beautiful segue because we’re going to come back to that because another thing that I wanted to ask you about was that we think that our genes determine our destiny. You know this is another theme that we kind of have come to accept in this physical you call it the scientific materialistic world. These genes are our destiny but that’s not the case and I couldn’t think of a better person to ask this question, what is that? What is the reality what is this term called epigenetics?
Dr. Bruce Lipton: Well, let’s get the terms down because then we can work with it more easily. Genetics is the belief that we’ve all been programmed the science of genetics which is the science of genes and how genes create the characteristics of the body and then how it was also extended to include not just our physical traits, but our emotional traits and our behavioural traits were all relegated to the action of genes. And I say well, what genes are these physical DNA molecules that have there like blueprints and why is this relevant?
Well, the first thing is this if you would tribute the characters of your life to your genes and the genes are presumably turning on and off that’s why we always say gene turned on and a gene turned off and it does so on its own, and I said well why is the relevant? Because I said well then, the genes are making the control and we don’t control the genes and so all of a sudden it says we’ll wait then if the genes are making the decisions and I can’t change the genes then I am by… and this is the important word, a “victim” of my heredity. I’m getting traits from genes that apparently came from my mother and my father mixing the traits together and that these traits controlled by genes could then control the character of my life.
And I say oh, my God then what we are saying if you believe in genetic control is that you are a victim of your heredity. You got cancer running your families? Like oh, my God I have the gene for cancer, I can get cancer or Alzheimer’s or cardiovascular disease or whatever we start to attribute them… but I am a victim of these genes. And so, we disempowered people because if you’re out there you go oh, my God there’s gene could turn on and I get cancer and I can’t control the gene it’s like I’m a victim. I go okay, that is genetic control. Your life is under the control of your genes. But work since… well, I started 50 years ago on this and in 1990 the new science was introduced, and it’s called not genetic control but epigenetic control. Well, it sounds like the same thing. I go… it’s a revolution.
The revolution between genetics and epigenetics is as powerful as the evolution from Newtonian physics to quantum physics. It changes the world. I go okay, wait what does it mean? Epi, the prefix epi means above. So, when you say in Latin what’s the name of the skin you say oh, the epidermis. Oh, yeah, so, what does that mean? Well, the dermis is the layer of connected tissues and blood vessels below the skin.
And so, epidermis by definition says above the skin. I mean above the dermis, epidermis, above the dermis. I go okay what does epigenetic control means? Epi means above. And I say epigenetic control translates as control above the genes. Wait a minute, wait. Aren’t the genes in control? I said no, no. What’s the control above the genes? And basically, it’s environment. And this becomes really important because if the environment is controlling us then we can continue to survive an environment that is always changing.
If the genes are controlling us and environments change them, we may not fit anymore that all of a sudden, we’d all die out because whatever the gene programs are don’t fit the environment. But no, we adapt continuously because the environment is adjusting our genes and so, that we are always staying in harmony with the environment and that’s how we stay alive. So, the control isn’t in the genes. Then you said well, the environment and then now we have to take a step and here’s where the step comes from. Yes, if you’re an amoeba and you’re in a pond whatever conditions are in the environment you’re going to make a response to it to survive in that pond.
So, if the weather changes or whatever’s in the water changes the amoeba response to that environment and changes its behaviour. And I say okay well, our cells and were made out of 50 trillion cells, our cells are like amoebas. We have 50 trillion amoebas living in a community and the shape of that community is your human body.
So, when you say I’m an individual organism, I go no, no you’re a community of 50 trillion amoebas that are working in a harmony that and the community shape is your body. So, we have amoeba cells and they’re going to respond the environment I say yeah but let’s say you’re a liver cell and you’re in the liver and you’re supposed to adjust your function to what’s going on in the environment to stay alive. I go but if you’re a liver cell how do you know what the heck is going on in the environment? You’re inside you have no idea what’s going on in the environment. So, I said oh, nervous system with all its senses taste smell touch pain temperature, all these physical things, sight, these are the nervous systems ability to read the environment and then send the information to your community of cells so that they can coordinate their behaviour to stay alive in the environment.
So, you have a different behaviour if a saber-toothed tiger is chasing you then the behaviour if you’re sitting in a tree eating a banana. You’ve got two different behaviours, but it’s based on what was going on outside. So, I say why is it relevant? I say so your liver cell is depending on your nervous system to send information about what the environment is about so the liver cell can adjust the function to support the organism in whatever environment you find yourself in. I go great that’s the function of the nervous system.
I go oh, when we get up to the level of the nervous system of the human between the environment and the body is the mind and the mind does an interpretation of what’s going on in the environment. So, the cells of my liver, do they get the direct signal of what’s going on in the environment? I go sometimes, sometimes not because if the interpretation in the mind looks at that signal it can have a different response to the same signal. Two people can be in the exact same environment and have two totally different behaviours based on how the mind is each there each of their minds is looking at the world. No two people see the world exactly the same. So, I say why is this relevant? Because my liver cell is not now directly connected to the environment my liver cells behaviour is directly connected to the interpretation that my mind is sending. I go oh, my God well, interpretation is your belief. I go yeah and since the mind is sending the signals to the cells and the mind is creating the environment which controls the genes then whatever the picture in the mind is that’s the signal that’s being sent to the cells.
And you say, well, why is that relevant? I go well if you have a picture of being sick then the mind sends the signals to coordinate you to be sick but if the mind sends a picture of you being well then it sends the signals to the body to become well. And so, the mind is adjusting the body to the picture that is in the mind. And then I go uh-oh because now we recognise that 70% or more of our thoughts look at the world in a very negative disempowering, self-sabotaging way and if we’re controlling our biology with the picture we have in our mind and our minds are sending these negative images then our bodies become a complement to those negative images and you can create cancer just because you perceive it in your mind that you have a cancer. But you can also eliminate cancer by changing the picture in your mind that caused that cancer and all of a sudden you start to say well, wait, my mind is creating an image of the universe in which I live and that that image is translated by the nervous system into chemistry which controls epigenetics.
So, that my physical and behavioural emotional biology is actually under the control of the picture in our mind. A picture of health, happiness, love, pain, war, peace. These are pictures. And I said why is it relevant? Because when we put those pictures in the mind the nervous system will translate them into chemistry which then shapes the body to be a complement to that picture and then I go back to the quote in nature. The universe is immaterial, it’s mental and spiritual.
Our mental and spiritual character is being shaped by the nervous system to express reality. And if we change our mental and spiritual character how we handle it, then we change our lives and all of a sudden, we conform totally to quantum physics when you consider that mind spirit consciousness represents an energy field, a field of invisible energy that’s what the field is. And I go why is it relevant? And one more physics quote and this from Albert Einstein and it’s like it’s so beautiful does the quote from Albert Einstein is the field which is invisible energy, consciousness etc. The field is the sole governing agency of the particle. Particle meant physical reality, field means energy, consciousness, and thoughts. We’ll listen to it again. The field, the energy, the consciousness, the thought is the sole governing agency of the particle, matter, body, universe. And then all of a sudden you go back right to the quote of the physicist, yep, it’s all immaterial but your consciousness, your mind, and your spirit are creating this world.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: I do. We’re going to go on and talk a little bit more about this conscious a subconscious mind but just while we’re staying with this genetic, epigenetic story, I mean thoughts of things and those things are actual chemicals which attach to cells and cause genes to express themselves in a particular way. And is that the essence of this process of epigenetics rather than just being this victim? We actually have some control over how our genes express themselves.
Dr. Bruce Lipton: We have almost absolute control over how genes express ourselves.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: And while family history isn’t all that relevant, it’s kind of disturbing to think and I think I’ve read this correctly that this epigenetic expression is actually inheritable?
Dr. Bruce Lipton: Absolutely. Here’s an interesting story they looked at the fate of children that got adopted into families where there’s a lineage of cancer running in the family and they find that the adopted child will get the same family cancer with the same probability as any of the natural siblings. The whole issue is this, the adopted child came from totally different genetics. It wasn’t the genes that were responsible for cancer. It was growing up in the family and acquiring the programming in the beliefs of how to respond to life that was not in harmony with the world and that disharmony in your biology.
Disharmony is expressed as disease. What was the point, here’s the point, let me give a fact of science, less than one percent of disease is due to genetic flaws? Listen again, less than one percent of disease is due to genetic flaws. I say why is it relevant? Like well, then where the heck did the 90 percent plus of disease come from? And it goes back to consciousness. That we are creating our illnesses because of the stresses that we live under and our attitudes and beliefs of victim and pressures and the Darwinian belief of survival of the fittest and a competition for life.
You know, it’s like oh my God we’ve been programmed to be these animals running in a maze competing against each other so that we stay alive that life isn’t a beautiful harmonious thing. According to that theory life is a rat race, a struggle of competition and if you don’t compete you get lost and you die and so everybody’s out there trying to stay alive and what was a garden. And I go with relevance to the word garden, a garden by definition is a community in full cooperation. A gardener is cooperation there’s no struggle in the garden, it’s a cooperation. And the reality is oh my god we inherited a garden and now through our perception that this is a struggle in you know, for life in a competition for fitness we turned that garden into we’re destroying the garden. That’s why we’re facing an extinction.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: The concept of survival of the fittest is one that actually sits comfortably in a world in this scientific materialist world that you’ve described but as you say in a synergy in cooperation or something that’s played a much bigger role in our evolution, isn’t it?
Dr. Bruce Lipton: Yeah, I mean that’s well now it’s now it’s recognised by science that cooperation has been left out of the equation and that it is the more dominant aspect of evolution is cooperation. You see, the whole idea of that survival of the fittest was actually not from Darwin, it was from a guy earlier Thomas Malthus. And Malthus was like the leader in a philosophy called… I was trying to just all of a sudden remember the philosophy it’s like pessimism. That’s what it was called, the philosophy of pessimism. I go what do you mean? I go well, that he’s the guy that said look, plants it’s hard to get plants to continue producing more and more. You can work really hard.
Let’s say you’re a farmer and you get a bushel of corn out of this field this year. And then you work really, really hard next year and you get two bushels of corn. So, oh, wow, you double the production that’s really cool. But then in the third year, you work really, really hard to get an extra bushel so now you have three bushels. And then the fourth year you work harder and then you get four bushels. So, every year you get one more bushel out of the land. And then he said but animals when they reproduce double the population.
So, first, you have two animals then you have four animals then you have eight, sixteen, thirty-two… And I go well there’s a problem. If the animals keep doubling which is called geometric but the food grows only one step at a time arithmetically, that’s the word, then it says there’s a point where there’s going to be too many animals and not enough food. That would be a simple conclusion. There’s a how many years of animals reproducing will they overproduce and then there’s going to be competition for food. And that was the concept that became part of the Darwinian Theory that the competition is this.
There’s not enough for everybody and therefore you have to fight for your survival and therefore that led to all this competition and competition leads to violence and violence leads to war and look at the world that we created when it was based on this Malthus principle and guess what? Scientifically invalid. Totally incorrect. Animals just reproduce the same population. So, two parents produce two offspring. You go you know, let’s say a clam has a thousand eggs and I go yeah, and 998 of those eggs are going to die or be food for a higher organism. And so, there is nobody two clams coming to human’s mate and each family should end up with two offspring to replace the parents that would be conventional science.
And in fact, in the world of the West, Australia, U.S., Great Britain, Germany, it’s actually two parents totally produced less than two offspring. That the population is getting a little smaller but in poor countries, the population is increasing because they don’t have what the West has social security. Meaning if you get old in one of those poor countries how are you going to survive? The answer is you better have some kids that are going to be able to share with you what they’re making and in really poor countries then you have to have more kids because each kid is not going to make that much either and all the sudden you start to see that our population problem is as they do is due to the fact that there’s a built-in cultural understanding that if you get old and you can’t take care of yourself you’re going to be on the street, you’re going to die and therefore we have children and children become social security…
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: Now, Bruce, let me… Let’s move to a more positive now. But you know, I know that you’ve mentioned it particularly when we’re talking about this epigenetics talking about the conscious and the unconscious mind and I know that you’ve spoken written a lot about the fact that our conscious mind actually plays a surprisingly small part in our lives which I guess leaves us with the subconscious mind. What can you talk to our listener a little that dichotomy there and what influences the subconscious mind? How can we change it to fulfill our potential?
Dr. Bruce Lipton: Okay, first a very simple analogy. I go to the Apple store and I buy a brand-new iPod and the iPod looks like iPhone and on the front is a touch screen where you can create a playlist and adjust the volume and the EQ and go fast-forward. You can you can create using what is called the touchscreen. So, I buy a brand-new iPod take it out of the box and on the touch screen I push play, and nothing happens. I go oh my god I just got ripped off I paid all this money and the damn thing isn’t working. And then some little seven-year-old kid comes up to me and goes hey, mister you didn’t download any music. If you don’t download and don’t download any music can’t play. And it’s like oh, I got it. It’s the memory you got to put some programs in the memory, so you can play. I go yeah.
So, I go okay now take that analogy and look at it this way. The conscious mind is the touchscreen, the subconscious mind is the program database. I say if you are just born and you have no data in your subconscious, no programs, no how to behave, nothing. And I say well, do something and your conscious mind doesn’t have any programs. It’s just like the iPod nothing’s going to happen, do what? So, nature creates the first seven years of a child’s life where our memory gets downloaded with behaviour because our brain in the first seven years of our life is operating at a vibrational frequency less than consciousness in electrical an EEG, electroencephalograph, the reading of brain activity with wires on your head. The vibration that they read of a child under seven is in a lower vibration than consciousness it’s called theta. And a higher vibration of brain activity alpha is where consciousness begins.
So, a child for the first seven years the brain of a child is in theta. Well, theta is imagination and of course that’s a character of children where they can have an imaginary world in a real world, so they can play alone and have imaginary friends throughout the room and have a tea party and do everything or they can write a broom and the mother says give me the broom and the child on the broom does not see that broom as a broom, but it sees it as a horse. And to that child in that imagination state of theta, it is a horse, so they mix the real world-imaginary world, but theta is also hypnosis. And the point about it is this and the first seven years of a child’s life the brain is functioning a hypnosis it records everything it sees and hears. Why?
Well, that’s the data of how to behave in the family, how the father behaves you learned that by observing your father, how the mother behaves, you watch your mother. And I say what do you mean? Just watch them. I say the brain is like a video camera whatever it sees it’s just recording it. There’s no consciousness like a viewer to watch what’s being recorded, consciousness doesn’t begin until around 7:00. So, there’s a problem and the problem is this the programs that are downloaded before age seven can be good programs or bad programs, but your conscious mind isn’t working so it doesn’t filter amount make any difference, they’re just recorded.
So, what are you recording? Other people’s behaviour, you’re watching your father you’re recording how your father behaves in life you watch your mother you see how she behaves in life. Rules are established then this is what a father does, this is what the mother does, this is what a sibling does. I say how’d you get these programs? I say for seven years just watch and download and after your age seven consciousness kicks in now you can use that touchscreen.
Now you can use the programs and create and do things with the programs, you become more of a creator but if there are no programs conscious mind has no ability to create that way because there’s nothing to create from. So, seven years is programming it goes straight into the subconscious mind. The difference between conscious and subconscious is critical and that is this, they don’t have the same function and they don’t learn in the same way and that’s where the disconnects come from.
The function of the conscious mind is a creative mind, imagination. And the more consciousness and organism has the more creative its life capabilities are. So, you look at humans as like my God we created a rocket and computers and all these things. I’d say conscious minds creativity. And I said and what about subconscious? I got uh, subconsciousness is habits. And people say oh, the subconscious was evil stuff. I go no, no subconscious habits. And they’re very good habits.
For example, when did you learn how to walk? Oh, before you were two? Have you had to relearn how to walk? No, My God, well, you got a subconscious, thank God. Why? Because if you had to wake up every day and remember trying to remember how to walk and you didn’t have a program you’d spend all day just learning how to walk and then go back to bed at night. And the simple reality is yep, programs are good when they support us, but we can also get programs that could sabotage our viability, our life, our desires and our wishes. How did we get these programs and sabotages? I go… we copied other people, if they have a defect then we got a defect because we copied it and they say well that’s subconscious mind. I say yeah but after seven you can use the conscious mind, creative mind, subconscious mind, habit mind. I go after a seven I can start being creative, I go absolutely and you can you know just like a computer, you got programs on the hard drive, okay? That’s subconscious. And then you could pull them up on the screen and then you can edit and modify them and change them and I say oh that’s the creative conscious mind. What’s on the screen is creative consciousness, what’s in the hard drive is the habit. And I go so, what’s the relevance? I go as long as you’re in the conscious mind you were actually in a creative mode and whatever your wishes and desires are your nervous system is going to try to coordinate that output to express those.
However, and this is the monkey wrench in the machine and this is where all the problems come from this one point. The conscious mind imagines, you know, the creative mind can think. And I say well what’s the issue with that? I say when it’s thinking by definition the conscious mind stops paying attention to what’s going on outside because thinking is an inside job. If I say you know, what are you doing next Wednesday the answer is not really written on the floor or anywhere around you, it’s in your head, you have to go think. Ah, the moment you were thinking you let go of the wheel, you’re not driving the vehicle anymore. The conscious mind is driving the vehicle. Yeah, where’s it going? Toward it wishes and desires. I go great then I say yeah and but the moment you’re thinking you go to autopilot. You know, what’s Autopilot? The subconscious, it’s where the habits are, it knows how to walk and knows how to drive the car knows how to talk and knows how to do your job well because those things that you repeat it over and over again become habits.
So, the point is simply this. When you are thinking, the creative mind lets go of the wheel goes inside and deals with a thought. The problem then is automatically the autopilot subconscious kicks in and the behaviour that the subconscious is going to use has been programmed not from you but by other people. So, when you are thinking you’re not paying attention to what’s going on and you’re automatically running from the program and if the programs are good programs, great because whether you’re paying attention not a good program is going to lead to a good result. But if you’ve got a program that is not a good program and you’re thinking and that program begins to play then guess what? You are sabotaging yourself and your conscious mind has no awareness that you just did this.
Ron, let me tell you a quick story that 30-some years of lecturing the same story. So, why… this is most an easy story. The story is this. Sometime during your development probably had a friend that you were very close to and you knew your friend’s behaviour very, very well. And in this particular case, you also know your friends parent. And one day you see that your friend has some of the exact same behaviour as the parent.
So, you know, of course, you got to tell your friends you go hey, Bill you are just like your dad. And then you back away from Bill. Bill will go ballistic and say how the heck can you compare me to my dad? I’m nothing like my dad. And people start laughing in the audience because they’ve all had familiar kinds of experiences and I say this is a profound story, very profound in this regard. Everyone else can see that Bill behaves like is that the only one who doesn’t see it is Bill. Explanation? Bill downloaded his dad’s behaviours in the first seven years. When does Bill play those subconscious programs? When he’s thinking.
So, when Bill is thinking, and the program is playing it’s not Bill’s wishes and desires that are being manifest it’s the program that’s being manifest. The negative things that he acquired during his development and why is that relevant? Because Bill is unaware that this negative behaviour is playing and if it’s sabotaging his life then Bill was totally unaware that his own behaviour has created the problem. So, Bill is left with what to think. Oh, my God, it didn’t work. Oh, the universe is it’s not a you know, it’s not in my cards to be happy successful, health, it’s not it’s not in my fate to be that way I want to be healthy, I want to be wealthy. And I go that’s good creative conscious thinking and I say yeah but if you’re only using that five percent of the day which is what science has recognised then it says 95 percent of your life is not coming from your creative wishes and desires, it’s coming from whatever you download it. And psychologists will tell you 70 percent or more of the downloaded programs that a child receives before age 7 are disempowering self-sabotaging and limiting beliefs.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: So, Bruce how do we do an audit to our subconscious mind?
Dr. Bruce Lipton: And well, that’s the real cool part because Ron when you asked that you’d say well what program that I get when I was zero? What program did I get when I was one? In fact, what program did I get even before I was born in the last trimester of pregnancy? And you say, well, how could I know? I didn’t even I wasn’t conscious, I have no idea what the program is.
So, thanks for asking the question Ron because here’s the thing. How do you know what your programs are because you weren’t conscious when they were put in? And so, the easy part is this 95 percent of your life comes from the subconscious programs. The point is your life is a printout of your programs. Simple point. The things you like that come into your life they come in because you have programs that support them being there. But this is the one. In contrast, the things you desire and wish for but you have to work hard for struggle sweat over put a lot of effort into it my God you’re working so hard to make these happen, why is it so difficult to get those things?
And the answer is inevitably the subconscious doesn’t support that being in your life. So, 95% of the day your subconscious is sabotaging your wish. Your wish is to be successful and your subconscious probably has some program that says not deserving, not smart enough or something and what will it do? 95% of the day creates a behaviour based on the program and you will make mistakes and you’ll do stupid things and you and you won’t see it, except you’ll see the result, it didn’t work. I wanted to be successful, it didn’t work, oh, the universe against me and I don’t know. 95% of the day your own programs were shooting you in the foot, you have this bloody foot and you look around like who did it and you don’t even see the gun is in your own hand. That that we are sabotaging ourselves and we don’t know it because our programs the function of the mind is to take the program and turn it into reality.
So, if it’s a program of a healing, oh, the placebo effect. A program, the doctor says here’s this pill that’s going to heal you and give you such a story about this amazing medication and you say okay, let me take the pills and I go great you take the pill then and you get well. And then you find out the pill is a sugar pill. Well, what healed you? Obviously not the sugar pill, your perception, your belief, your vision that taking this pill was going to lead to a healthy outcome so the mind has a picture of what? Healthy outcome. And you take the pill and then all of a sudden say oh that’s going to release healthy outcome and guess what? You heal yourself and the darn thing was a sugar pill.
And so, basically says your positive thought about the pill healed you because that thought was then turned into behaviour by the brain and we healed ourselves. And people go yeah, yeah, the placebos, that’s a like positive thinking, healing. They go yeah, now let’s switch this to the more important side that nobody talks about really and that is what about a negative thought? Because of placebos based on having a positive thought, what about a negative thought? This won’t work, I can’t do this, I have cancer, these… that you know, I’m not good enough or whatever. I said these are negative thoughts I said what’s the result I said equally powerful to the positive thought but works in the opposite direction. A positive thought can heal you from cancer, you can have remission with a positive thought. A negative thought can cause the cancer so negative thoughts are equally powerful and we don’t recognise that the vast majority of our thoughts are negative and as a result, we don’t realise that our own thinking is manifesting a reality that the brain will manifest chemistry to complement that reality. That chemistry controls the genetics which then our behaviour is going to be influenced by what you were thinking. Positive thinking, the chemistry of healing is released. Negative thinking, the stress chemicals are released, and the negative thinking is responsible for up to 90% of doctor visits.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: So, this is this audit of the subconscious mind it involves obviously quite a deal of reflection and not always possible you know, I mean this is part of the power of relationship and communication and actually maybe even therapy at times. Is this reflection on your past and identifying these subconscious traps?
Dr. Bruce Lipton: Absolutely. Whatever your subconscious probably works… the life you are experiencing is a print out of your subconscious. So, basically says if there’s happiness the subconscious is acknowledging whatever out there is giving you happiness but if they’re struggle it says the subconscious is not supporting that destination and you’re trying to override the program that’s working 95% of the day with a mind that’s only working 5% of the day, that’s where the difficulty comes in. But and to simplify this that we’ve been programmed and that these programs are a problem. The movie “The Matrix” is like listed as science fiction but the movie The Matrix is a documentary. Everybody’s been programmed, that’s the first thing and let me emphasise this. The idea of being program is not a new idea, the Jesuits for 400 years have stated give me a child until it is seven I will show you the man. They stated exactly what we just said. You are programmed for seven years and whatever that program is 95% of your life is going to express that program so whatever you’re… whatever they program you within the first seven years will manifest as the experiences you will have in your life. That they’ve been saying out for four hundred years that’s a true story.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: Oh, yes. And how do we how do we change that? Once that’s we’ve identified it, the challenge now is should you choose to accept it? This isn’t Mission Impossible.
Dr. Bruce Lipton: Yeah, well, its mission very possible but you have to know how to do it and this is where the problem comes from. The problem is that we didn’t separate the two conscious and subconscious minds into separate interdependent minds. Each mind learns in a different way and each mind functions in a different way and we grouped them oh, the mind so, if all of a sudden, I say oh, that’s a negative behaviour I don’t want to do that anymore and I go great the conscious mind just said don’t do this anymore. And I say if the subconscious mind hear that are changed answers? Absolutely not, doesn’t even learn that way.
So, the result is we keep trying to adjust our lives by saying well, you know, I won’t do this anymore and then you find yourself doing it again. I go well that’s what I happens all about, you let go of the control and the habit will kick right back in again. So, you want to change the subconscious mind I go yeah, but the two minds are different in this regard. The function of the conscious mind we mentioned earlier is creativity. Whatever you can imagine, and desire and wish is a picture in the conscious mind. I go yeah great it’s creative. And when it’s driving the vehicle you create the pictures in your mind and that’s where the story of The Matrix comes in. It says you’ve been programmed and your life is a program. You’ll wake up every day you’ll start to go through the same tracks the same things day after day after day and they don’t seem to change and the same issues you have follow you all the time and that’s being in the program.
Then I said but if you take the red pill you get out of the program. Like oh, that’s pretty cool. I said well what would it be like to take the red pill? Then I go interesting enough most people have taken the red pill and didn’t realise it but had the profound consequences. And I said well what was that? I say falling in love for many people that it doesn’t have to be falling love’s not the only way of doing this but falling in love is the character of many people’s lives are characterised by a period of falling in love.
I said what does that mean? I say well your life could suck every day until you met person X, the one you’re going to have a relationship with. You meet person X you fall in love almost instantly; your life is changing 24 hours later you have a completely different life. It’s called the honeymoon. The honeymoon is what? God, life is beautiful, it’s heaven on earth. The food tastes great the music sounds better you feel better even a lousy job you do is not so lousy anymore. Everything is like God, it’s got a glow on it so beautiful. I go how did the blah blah blah life in 24 hours turn into heaven on earth?
The answer was scientists recognised that falling in love is one of the characteristics that stops the programming and we stay mindful. And being mindful that’s like a Buddhist process of keeping your conscious mind present because I said well why is the subconscious mind running this show? And I said because when the conscious mind is thinking the autopilot subconscious kicks in. I go well what if the conscious mind stops thinking? I go well then it continuously running the show. The autopilot doesn’t kick in.
So, it turns out when people fall in love it’s a time period where they stay mindful. They stop thinking and they start being and start being at that moment not letting go of being in the moment. I go yeah of course you just met someone you love this is not the time to be thinking going in your head and let him go, this is time to be fall out here and enjoy what you got right in front of you. So, we stopped thinking. I said well what happened when you stopped thinking? I said your life was blah blah blah you meet this person 24 hours later you stop thinking, the equivalent of the red pill. And I say then what? Well, now your creation is not coming from the subconscious mind is coming from the creative conscious mind. I said what you create? Honeymoon, heaven on earth. I go Jesus, you know, it was always available to you but the moment you cut back into the subconscious mind that image is going to disappear. So, the honeymoon has a lifespan to it based on different people.
How long you can stay mindful? The longer you stay mindful the less you default to the subconscious programs which are negative. But the moment you start thinking a lot is a moment those negative programs show up and they spoil the honeymoon and the relationship because a lot of those negative programs they won’t they don’t play when you’re in your conscious mind, they only play when you let the subconscious autopilot kick in. And all of a sudden when these negative programs show up that’s when the honeymoon starts to taper off. You could still be in love with somebody but the juicy joy of heaven on earth that was so exquisite in the beginning of that love affair, sort of disappears then it becomes regular life. Why? Well, you can’t back into the program again.
So, what is the result of not playing the program? Well, manifesting heaven on earth. And all of a sudden, it’s like well, that would be the intention. I go well, that was what we were here for. I say and then how come it’s not heaven on earth? I say because the programs that were downloaded into us in seven years set us up to run a rat race with competition, violence you know, killed the other guy before he kills you, very negative view of the world of struggle and fight and illness and we put those programs in and then run those 95 percent of the day and then you look around say yep that’s the world we have because if everyone was in love at this one moment then the world would not have war, that would be in harmony and balance and would for be heaven on earth. Because if everyone was creating heaven on earth simultaneously then exactly that would be what would be manifesting in our world today.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: Yes. Now, Bruce so much we’ve covered so much territory here and it’s always so great to talk to you. I want to just finish with this and taking a step back from everything you do. What do you think the biggest challenge for people today is on their health journey through life?
Dr. Bruce Lipton: The biggest challenge is they perceive themselves as victims. That they see that I give up control of my health to the medical profession which is actually not the real one you’re giving up too. You’re giving up to the pharmaceutical industry. The pharmaceutical industry is a corporate entity that makes money by telling you you’re a victim and that if you buy their drugs you’re going to, you’re going to be okay. And it turns out that is the biggest sham in the world. It’s a money-making organisation. And in fact, while pharmaceutical agencies do have wonderful miracle drugs they don’t really sell them to the public for a simple reason, if you heal somebody they’re no longer a customer.
So, they don’t really sell the healing drugs they just keep you strung on to come back to the next prescription and the next one and the next one. So, we’ve been disempowered. We’ve been disempowered by our culture, our programming and with the disappear by people who know the truth because that we look at the world wrong and there are very powerful people out there and you go wow, wow, how’d they get all that power? And then the joke is everyone is equally powerful.
I say well, how could Bill Gates get 60 billion dollars and I have trouble you know buying a cappuccino? And the issue is how did you not have power? And I said because you’ve been systematically disempowered with programming from the last trimester of pregnancy to the first seven years again because the leadership of the world as the Jesuits knew also know that I can program you in the first seven years and if I program you to be a victim to the medical community, not the medical community or the pharmaceutical community actually, and have you believe it then by behaviour and habit you will continue to follow through and keep buying those prescription drugs when you could have healed yourself if you had a different perspective on who you really are. You’re not a victim of your genes you’re a creator and master of your genes, your behaviour and your emotions but if you don’t believe it because of the programming running 95% of the day then guess what? You become the victim. And that was the intention for most of that programming, taking away a person’s spirit saying no, no, I’m your religion, pay me the money and we’ll talk to God for you. It’s like each one of us is a spirit and that spirit is connected to God. There is no way that we can be separated from this energy.
And once you see a possible separation then you start to say well how much do I have to pay to get back in the game? And then you gave up your power. At that moment the fact is the problem the fact is we are all connected to spiritual God and there’s no way you could ever be disconnected from it and it’s a reprogramming thing. It’s just saying I see the negative programming’s, I’m living the negative programs and I can take those programs and turn them around and make them positive programs that match the wishes and desires. I go what would be the simple conclusion? What would be the result if you program your subconscious mind to have all the programs that your conscious mind sees as wishes and desires?
And then comes the fun answer and the answer is this – It’ll be heaven on earth whether you’re conscious or not paying attention at all because if your subconscious has those same programs and without you even paying attention you would always be ending up in heaven on earth without even trying to do it. And that’s exciting part because if you do reprogram you get your power back. If you don’t reprogram you are the expression of a program. And a program that was not put in by yourself.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: Bruce what a great note to finish on. Thank you so much for joining us, it’s always a pleasure to talk to you.
Dr. Bruce Lipton: Ron I am so happy to be here with you and thank you for this opportunity. And I just really hope that people really get the nature as the quantum physics, the most profound science reveals that the world that we’re experiencing is due to our mental and our spiritual characteristics. We are controllers of our own mental and spiritual characteristics therefore we are not victims, we are creators, just unfortunately we gave the program over to parents and community in the first seven years and they propagated their problems from a generation that they received from their parents and decide etc. So, I want to thank you because if people fully get what we’re talking about then the effort is what if you want to have a honeymoon every day of your life? And the answer is reprogramming and that is so, so very important to be doing.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: Thanks Bruce.
Dr. Bruce Lipton: Thank you Ron.
Dr. Ron Ehrlich: See, now, I told you when we started a powerhouse, knowledgeable, passionate empowering. As I also mentioned he has written several books. I mentioned The Biology of Belief, the by-line of which is unleashing the power of consciousness matter and miracles. His other book, Spontaneous Evolution: Our positive future and a way to get there from here and The Honeymoon Effect: The science of creating heaven on Earth. I mean the book names tell a story on their own. I also love this idea that I think we all need reminding of and I think it’s basic, yet it is so profound. It’s a formula that captures the world we inhabit. Matter plus energy equals structure. We think the world we see is just matter. We can sort of acknowledge that it’s a collection of atoms and that’s almost as far as our brain lets us go. Now don’t blank out on me here I’m not going to try and explain quantum physics but I just… but just because I can’t explain it so that you and for that matter, I can understand it, it doesn’t mean that it’s not real. It is real and so learning how to use this energy that surrounds us is in a positive way is a very powerful force.
Now, this episode has been a kind of a philosophical quantum level of the episode we did a few weeks ago, episode 27 with Dr. Suzy Green, “The power of positive thought”. This is taking that concept to a whole new and a sub anatomical level. Doing it an audit of your conscious mind is an interesting exercise. I mean after I spoke with Bruce I tried to think of all the things in my life that I could consider positive and negative about myself. I know that will disappoint some of my listeners but I’m not perfect. There it is I’ve said it it’s out there. And sure, enough I could reflect on characteristics about strengths and weaknesses that people very close to me may have had or significance events that occurred that I could remember when I was growing up.
Now my memory goes back to 3 or 4 years old. Remember what he said? Give me the child at 7 and I’ll show you the adults? So, in order to reflect on those first 4 years prior to my memory, I guess we only have those close to us. They’re their own characters if you like as best as we understood them to reflect on and think about what influence they had on our subconscious. We touched on this theme in that other grade episode I did with Dr. Shankardev Saraswati, episode 13 “Mind and body connection”. There’s just so much to think about. We will of course have links to Bruce’s website. He lectures and runs workshops, live and online all around the world and I spoke to him about the possibility of bringing him out to Australia in 2019.
Well, I hope we can do that. So, until next time this is Dr. Ron Ehrlich. Be well.
This podcast provides general information and discussion about medicine, health and related subjects. The content is not intended and should not be construed as medical advice or as a substitute for care by a qualified medical practitioner. If you or any other person has a medical concern, he or she should consult with an appropriately qualified medical practitioner. Guests who speak in this podcast express their own opinions and experiences and conclusions.